BM_discussion http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion?hl=en
BM_discussion@googlegroups.com Today's topics: * Fwd: National Convention Photos - 1 messages, 1 author http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/30f1d630cd4a12bb?hl=en * Fwd: [BM_mumbai] Harvard Commencement Address by Bill Gates - 2 messages, 2 authors http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/91996f5ce8b8e408?hl=en * Know our future President. And know another betrayal of India. - 1 messages, 1 author http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/539e3a42fb974c83?hl=en ============================================================================== TOPIC: Fwd: National Convention Photos http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/30f1d630cd4a12bb?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 1 == Date: Wed, Jul 18 2007 2:27 am From: "Abhijit K" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rupesh Garg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Jul 18, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: National Convention Photos To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Abhijit K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rishikesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://picasaweb.google.com/rupeshgarg20/BM_National_Convention_Gwalior -- Rupesh 91.98811.04424 http://www.localgovernance.org http://bharatudaymission.org http://www.artofliving.org -- Abhijit Meenakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt www.bharatudaymission.org ============================================================================== TOPIC: Fwd: [BM_mumbai] Harvard Commencement Address by Bill Gates http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/91996f5ce8b8e408?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 2 == Date: Wed, Jul 18 2007 5:47 am From: "Abhijit K" for bm members to comment on. please read the communication ahead.. - abhijit ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Abhijit K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Jul 18, 2007 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [BM_mumbai] Fwd: [rait1991] Harvard Commencement Address by Bill Gates To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I dont know whether that was sarcasm or an expectation. Anyways, I believe I am one among those people trying to find alternatives.. as they are doing in countries like Venezuela.. Not knowing an alternative should not mean that Unjust should let pass by.. a System that is unjust must be opposed.. the alternatives will keep emerging.. People have always thrown away an unjust system as they did in India against British, In Russia against Communists, in Venezuala against Capitalists.. Participatory democracy (or direct democracy) in Venezuela, Co-operative economy, Social Economy (as Vivek Claire www.nirmansanvad.org suggests), ways suggested by Vandana Siva, or Noam Chomsky (www.chomsky.info) are some of the emerging promising ways.. We must keep trying and thinking.. - Abhijit On 7/18/07, Nikhil Kulkarni <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > I feel that you were probably wanting to write more but didnt have time > .... that you do have an 'alternate system' in mind which you are proposing > as a 3rd alternative to capitalism and communism ..... > > I would want to wait for your complete thoughts on that before responding > - because otherwise my comments might fall into incorrect context. > > Nikhil > > On 7/18/07, Abhijit K < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Sorry for delay in replying.. was busy in National Convention related > > work.. > > > > I was disappointed not to see anyone except Akalpita at Gwalior.. > > > > .Please read ahead in blue font. > > > > On 7/8/07, Nikhil Kulkarni < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > My thoughts .... > > > > > > * How much impact do you think 2 or 3 or 10 b$ by bill gates will make > > > to world poverty, in statistical terms? > > > > > > First a correction - its $90 bn not $2-10 bn... However, I do agree > > > that the actual effect of the money directly will be very quite less as > > > compared to that caused by economic development. However, it is necessary > > > to > > > note that in certain parts of the world (read: Africa) people are not even > > > fit to take advantage of simple economic reforms also - these people need > > > to > > > be brought to that level first - they need to cross that threshold of > > > stepping into a civilized world from a tribal set up they are used to ... > > > this critical step needs a support from people like Gates and their > > > foundations ..... > > > > > > I dare say we don't need such 'push beyond threshold' foundations in > > > India - even if there are deprived people - we Indians ourselves should be > > > able to help our brethren ... > > > > > > > Ok 90b$ to trust you.. now there are lot of things that you talked > > about. > > a) What makes you/us determine that the tribal setup is not civilised? > > What is civilisation? > > b) How do you determine that people are fit or not fit? > > c) How do you think we Indians should help our brethern. To be more > > specific, how do you think we can eliminate poverty? > > > > * Why it should be Bill Gates to decide how 2b$ should be spent on > > > "people" ? > > > > > > Why not?? He has earned this money through his own efforts - his own > > > innovations, his own business shrewdness, his > > > > > > > He earned most of his money by monopolizing and killing competition. > > Competition does not exist in today's world where 90% of the research > > money goes for making weapons. > > > > own business acumen ... he might as well have set up amusements parks > > > using this money .. or invested in other startups or simply bought > > > islands - > > > just the fact that he has decided to use it for charity does not mean that > > > he looses its possession - that it becomes public property --- any such > > > thinking smells of the FAILED economic system called Leninist > > > > > > > > > .Disagreed. It does not become public property. If the system stays the > > same, the money goes back to where it came from -- the rich. > > > > communism .... > > > > > > > Thanks for saying that. I had already appreneded that I am writing at > > the risk of being called a leftist.. Nikhil went one step further.. > > > > Why is it that one whould think that there are only two alternatives? > > Where is that "innovation" that you talked about Bill Gates.. ? Is naything > > that talks against current capitalist setup to be called communist? > > > > The point was: Who owns the earth? The current setup plans to sell each > > and everything on earth to individuals.. those who already have money.. .. > > did you read the news about crowfard market? > > > > If the doubt however is whether Gates has the required intellectual > > > capacity to decide the best way to use this money for charity - then I am > > > sure he himself realizes his limitations on philanthropy and has employed > > > experienced social workers to manage the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. > > > > > > > Again. Who are the social workers? What makes them understand the needs > > of people? > > > > isnt it the People, directly themselves, hwo understand their nees > > better?. > > > > 3 examples from > > > http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/QuickFacts/LeadershipStaff/ > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Scott served for seven years as > > > president and CEO of the Seattle-based Group Health Cooperative, one of > > > the > > > oldest and most respected integrated health-care systems in the U.S. > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Burwell served in the Clinton > > > administration as deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, > > > assistant to the president, deputy chief of staff to the president, and > > > chief of staff to secretary of the treasury. She serves on the Board > > > of Directors for MetLife Inc. and the Governing Council of the Miller > > > Center > > > of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia. > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Yamada served as Chairman of Research > > > and Development and was a member of the Board of Directors at > > > GlaxoSmithKline. Prior to that, he was chairman of the Department of > > > Internal Medicine at the University of Michigan Medical School and > > > Physician-in-Chief at the University of Michigan Medical Center. Yamada > > > is a > > > past president of the American Gastroenterological Association and the > > > Association of American Physicians, a master of the American College of > > > Physicians, and a member of the Institute of Medicine of the National > > > Academy of Science in the United States and the Academy of Medical > > > Sciences > > > in the United Kingdom. > > > > > > > > Wow. Such a good setup of people. I am sure with all their experience at > > eliminating poverty and unemployment they will run the Gates fundation very > > sucessfully. I wonder why he did not employ any of Enron executives .. :)). > > > > > > * Why should a corporation, the primary aim of which by definition is to > > > make profit, involve in philanthropy ? Is it its area of expertise ? Is > > > "kalyaan of garib log" its area of expertise? > > > > > > No corporation is involving in philanthropy. Bill has created a > > > separate foundation called Bill & Melinda Gates foundation. So has Google > > > - > > > it is called Google.org and is managed separately from Google Corp. > > > > > > > Again, are you kidding? What is the difference? It is the same money > > that Gates earned through Internet Explorer monopoly, isnt it?. > > > > It is just that these organizations are allocating a part of their > > > profits to philanthropy - just like you and me would donate a part of our > > > salary to charity. In fact the case of Bill Gates is further similar > > > because > > > it is not Microsoft but Bill himself who is donating his personal > > > wealth to the Foundation. > > > > > > > Very good. Appreciated. > > > > * Excluding its initial years, how much has Infosys stayed true to its > > > philosophy ? How many employees of Infosys are trully stake holders in > > > infosys? How much salary infosys pays to a new joinee and is it in direct > > > correspondence with the "socialist heart" of N'murthy ? > > > > > > There is a popular misconception that a corporate must create value > > > throughout its lifetime. This is not necessarily true. > > > > > > > The Corporation is supposed to create profits NOT value. Value is > > > created as byproduct of profit earning. Often > > > > > > > .So some entirty can continue creating profit without any value for > > society. Thats what you said. Thanks for saying my point. > > That is the loophole. > > > > A rich person need not do anything "productive", just play in stock > > markets, or exchange markes and can still make money.. > > > > maximmum value is created within organizations at the time of > > > conception - because there is a lot of steam in the engine then. There are > > > some organizations like 3M who have an extreme innovation focus and hence > > > continue wealth creation long after their conception - but again such > > > wealth > > > creation happens essentially due to new ventures. Routine work, say for > > > example - power generation - is meant to create profits only ... > > > > > > Specifically, Infosys has helped empower people in 3 ways .. > > > > > > 1. It created immense value at the inception stage making Rupee > > > millionaires out of many of its initial employees. > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? > > > > 2. It continues to inspire entrepreneurs in India who want to repeat its > > > success > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? > > > > 3. It creates value every time it records profits and its share price > > > soars allowing many people to become millionaires by trading these shares > > > - > > > though this contribution would be minimal compared to what it did inits > > > initial years. > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? Only 1% of people trade on stock > > markets.. half of them get poor on stock markets.. > > > > > > > > * Where does capitalism grow after it has exhausted all the > > > resources/markets available to itself (as you must be knowing american > > > economy has become stagnant since decades.. and now growing much.. ) ? I > > > hope all of you know that continuous perpetual "growth" is essential > > > element of capitalist system. (I'm asking this question, at the risk of > > > being called a leftist.. because nowadays anyone who speaks against > > > existing > > > system is supposed to be a leftist ).. > > > > > > Misconception again ... The US is still one of the faster growing > > > economies of the world. It is economies like Japan and Europe who have > > > slowed down. But this fact anyway does not negate the point you are trying > > > to make that capitalism needs new markets to grow. > > > > > > > Where did you read that US is a fastest growing economy? > > > > > > https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#EconThis > > is US gover website. > > > > Says that it is ~3%. That is considered to be an almost stagflating > > economy. > > > > Yes, capitalism needs new markets to keep growing - but that does not > > > mean it needs new markets for the SAME products. We are getting confused > > > because of disparities that NON-ECONOMIC or NON-MARKET factors like > > > imperialism have created giving rise to a situatation where the demand of > > > some old goods is picking up NOW in poor countries and so new markets are > > > being discovered for old products in newly developing economies. > > > > > > > Exactly. Isnt it what the British did to India? > > > > However, look at the world today - is it only the developing world where > > > new markets are being discovered ?? Think of iPods, iPhones, Mobile > > > technologies, Social Networking, Biotechnology, fashion technology, Carbon > > > trading exchanges - are these not newer markets ??? Was any of these > > > envisaged when the US and USSR were fighting the battle of > > > industrialization > > > and manufacturing of goods ??? > > > > > > > Ans to last que is yes. Most of these things are a fallout of the space > > race.. USSR was quite ahead in space race.. > > Did USSR not progress in Science and Tech? > > > > How did Madam Curie invent Radioactivity or Newton found gravitation.. > > they did not need any of these neocolonial liberalism thingsy > > > > Yes, capitalism needs new markets to thrive but Capitalism also gives > > > rise to new markets!! Capitalist economy is a self sustaining chain of > > > creation of new markets and serving them - this is development - this is > > > value creation. > > > > > > > > > It does not. It can not. The physical resources in the world are > > limited. That is why the West is coming to east seeking markets.. again.. > > > > Calling capitalist economy a self sustaining one is a big joke. How many > > times have you heard about "sustainability" in today's newspapers? ... the > > fact is this model cant beocme sustainable.. > > > > Grwoth is essential.. for that consuming more resources is essential. It > > cant be sustainable. > > ? > > > > * Finally, can anyone please tell me how exactly the 2-5-10 b$ of Bill > > > gates will be spent and how exactly will they eliminate poverty (eliminate > > > in a sustained manner.. that is it should not lead to regenreation of > > > poverty)? > > > > > > Read all this here: > > > http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/OurWork/OurApproach/ > > > > > > > > > > Yeah i read that. It does not say anything. > > > > * What Md. Yunus is doing.. is it really capitalism ? > > > > > > No, according to me not. In fact I feel that the whole concept of > > > microfinance (while having its benefits) is being over glamorized. But > > > that > > > would be another topic of discussion - would love to do a discussion on > > > Micro Finance especially whether and how should we at BM use the concept > > > in > > > our work. > > > > > > > Bm should use all such things ofcourse. > > > > I think that both communism (in the Russian form) and Capitalism (in the > > European/American form) have failed. The world is realising this.. > > > > Md. Yunus or Bill Gates philonthrophy are just a reflection of this > > realisation.. People have good intentions.. but the system destroys the > > intentions.. all these attemps are some escapes from the system.. but not > > concrete ones.. > > > > Real democrasy did not exist in USSR.. neither does it exist in US.. in > > Russia the burecracy ruled... in US the corporations rule.. people have/had > > no say in the running of the country.. > > > > The world needs different mechanisms.. > > - Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Abhijit Meenakshi > > About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > > www.bharatudaymission.org > > > > > > > -- > Nikhil Kulkarni > KPMG | http://the-complete-man.blogspot.com| __._,_.___ > > www.bharatuday.tk > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bharatudaymission/ > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai/ > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Great > goal<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTQyZXV0BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Great+goal&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=4tWetmEBO-ThXuF57AVu8g> > Activities<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNTUwZ3ZsBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Activities&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=hcfv-xYXjdED9M4dtr6mBg> > Mumbai<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdmYwbDVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Mumbai&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=jrIf27ndx2xDxy0wTiGSZQ> > Goals<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW9lZjA3BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Goals&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=pYtU09MnIjSvx-hHAYaiZA> > Chapter<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODd2NDdzBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Chapter&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=9T_PhWGHE-of21kqRMDGjQ> > Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional > Change settings via the > Web<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNWxmY2k1BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1NzA4NjIzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDM3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2>(Yahoo! > ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest<[EMAIL > PROTECTED]:+Digest>| Switch > to Fully Featured<[EMAIL PROTECTED]:+Fully+Featured> > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXVvM2xnBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1NzA4NjIzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDM3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc1MjE0Ng-->| > Yahoo! > Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> | Unsubscribe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > __,_._,___ > -- Abhijit Meenakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt www.bharatudaymission.org -- Abhijit Meenakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt www.bharatudaymission.org == 2 of 2 == Date: Wed, Jul 18 2007 11:32 pm From: "Vignesh S K" Abhijit, Can you help me (and others) here, the www.nirmansanvad.org is not opening up, there could be a spelling error and the other site www.chomsky.info<http://www.chomsky.info> contains too many articles, which one are you specifically mentioning here about. Thanks and Regards S.K.Vignesh On 18/07/07, Abhijit K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > for bm members to comment on. please read the communication ahead.. > - abhijit > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Abhijit K < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Jul 18, 2007 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [BM_mumbai] Fwd: [rait1991] Harvard Commencement Address by > Bill Gates > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I dont know whether that was sarcasm or an expectation. Anyways, > > I believe I am one among those people trying to find alternatives.. as > they are doing in countries like Venezuela.. > > Not knowing an alternative should not mean that Unjust should let pass > by.. a System that is unjust must be opposed.. the alternatives will keep > emerging.. > > People have always thrown away an unjust system as they did in India > against British, In Russia against Communists, in Venezuala against > Capitalists.. > > Participatory democracy (or direct democracy) in Venezuela, Co-operative > economy, Social Economy (as Vivek Claire www.nirmansanvad.org suggests), > ways suggested by Vandana Siva, or Noam Chomsky ( www.chomsky.info) are > some of the emerging promising ways.. > > We must keep trying and thinking.. > - Abhijit > > > On 7/18/07, Nikhil Kulkarni <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > I feel that you were probably wanting to write more but didnt have time > > .... that you do have an 'alternate system' in mind which you are proposing > > as a 3rd alternative to capitalism and communism ..... > > > > I would want to wait for your complete thoughts on that before > > responding - because otherwise my comments might fall into incorrect > > context. > > > > Nikhil > > > > On 7/18/07, Abhijit K < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Sorry for delay in replying.. was busy in National Convention > > > related work.. > > > > > > I was disappointed not to see anyone except Akalpita at Gwalior.. > > > > > > .Please read ahead in blue font. > > > > > > On 7/8/07, Nikhil Kulkarni < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > My thoughts .... > > > > > > > > * How much impact do you think 2 or 3 or 10 b$ by bill gates will > > > > make to world poverty, in statistical terms? > > > > > > > > First a correction - its $90 bn not $2-10 bn... However, I do agree > > > > that the actual effect of the money directly will be very quite less as > > > > compared to that caused by economic development. However, it is > > > > necessary to > > > > note that in certain parts of the world (read: Africa) people are not > > > > even > > > > fit to take advantage of simple economic reforms also - these people > > > > need to > > > > be brought to that level first - they need to cross that threshold of > > > > stepping into a civilized world from a tribal set up they are used to > > > > ... > > > > this critical step needs a support from people like Gates and their > > > > foundations ..... > > > > > > > > I dare say we don't need such 'push beyond threshold' foundations in > > > > India - even if there are deprived people - we Indians ourselves should > > > > be > > > > able to help our brethren ... > > > > > > > > > > Ok 90b$ to trust you.. now there are lot of things that you talked > > > about. > > > a) What makes you/us determine that the tribal setup is not civilised? > > > What is civilisation? > > > b) How do you determine that people are fit or not fit? > > > c) How do you think we Indians should help our brethern. To be more > > > specific, how do you think we can eliminate poverty? > > > > > > * Why it should be Bill Gates to decide how 2b$ should be spent on > > > > "people" ? > > > > > > > > Why not?? He has earned this money through his own efforts - his own > > > > innovations, his own business shrewdness, his > > > > > > > > > > He earned most of his money by monopolizing and killing competition. > > > Competition does not exist in today's world where 90% of the research > > > money goes for making weapons. > > > > > > own business acumen ... he might as well have set up amusements parks > > > > using this money .. or invested in other startups or simply bought > > > > islands - > > > > just the fact that he has decided to use it for charity does not mean > > > > that > > > > he looses its possession - that it becomes public property --- any such > > > > thinking smells of the FAILED economic system called Leninist > > > > > > > > > > > > > .Disagreed. It does not become public property. If the system stays > > > the same, the money goes back to where it came from -- the rich. > > > > > > > > > communism .... > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for saying that. I had already appreneded that I am writing at > > > the risk of being called a leftist.. Nikhil went one step further.. > > > > > > Why is it that one whould think that there are only two alternatives? > > > Where is that "innovation" that you talked about Bill Gates.. ? Is > > > naything > > > that talks against current capitalist setup to be called communist? > > > > > > The point was: Who owns the earth? The current setup plans to sell > > > each and everything on earth to individuals.. those who already have > > > money.. > > > .. did you read the news about crowfard market? > > > > > > If the doubt however is whether Gates has the required intellectual > > > > capacity to decide the best way to use this money for charity - then I > > > > am > > > > sure he himself realizes his limitations on philanthropy and has > > > > employed > > > > experienced social workers to manage the Bill & Melinda Gates > > > > Foundation. > > > > > > > > > > Again. Who are the social workers? What makes them understand the > > > needs of people? > > > > > > isnt it the People, directly themselves, hwo understand their nees > > > better?. > > > > > > > > > 3 examples from > > > > http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/QuickFacts/LeadershipStaff/ > > > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Scott served for seven years as > > > > president and CEO of the Seattle-based Group Health Cooperative, one of > > > > the > > > > oldest and most respected integrated health-care systems in the U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Burwell served in the Clinton > > > > administration as deputy director of the Office of Management and > > > > Budget, > > > > assistant to the president, deputy chief of staff to the president, and > > > > chief of staff to secretary of the treasury. She serves on the Board > > > > of Directors for MetLife Inc. and the Governing Council of the Miller > > > > Center > > > > of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia. > > > > > > > > Before joining the foundation, Yamada served as Chairman of Research > > > > and Development and was a member of the Board of Directors at > > > > GlaxoSmithKline. Prior to that, he was chairman of the Department of > > > > Internal Medicine at the University of Michigan Medical School and > > > > Physician-in-Chief at the University of Michigan Medical Center. Yamada > > > > is a > > > > past president of the American Gastroenterological Association and the > > > > Association of American Physicians, a master of the American College of > > > > Physicians, and a member of the Institute of Medicine of the National > > > > Academy of Science in the United States and the Academy of Medical > > > > Sciences > > > > in the United Kingdom. > > > > > > > > > > > Wow. Such a good setup of people. I am sure with all their experience > > > at eliminating poverty and unemployment they will run the Gates fundation > > > very sucessfully. I wonder why he did not employ any of Enron executives > > > .. > > > :)). > > > > > > > > > * Why should a corporation, the primary aim of which by definition is > > > > to make profit, involve in philanthropy ? Is it its area of expertise ? > > > > Is > > > > "kalyaan of garib log" its area of expertise? > > > > > > > > No corporation is involving in philanthropy. Bill has created a > > > > separate foundation called Bill & Melinda Gates foundation. So has > > > > Google - > > > > it is called Google.org <http://google.org/> and is managed > > > > separately from Google Corp. > > > > > > > > > > Again, are you kidding? What is the difference? It is the same money > > > that Gates earned through Internet Explorer monopoly, isnt it?. > > > > > > > > > It is just that these organizations are allocating a part of their > > > > profits to philanthropy - just like you and me would donate a part of > > > > our > > > > salary to charity. In fact the case of Bill Gates is further similar > > > > because > > > > it is not Microsoft but Bill himself who is donating his personal > > > > wealth to the Foundation. > > > > > > > > > > Very good. Appreciated. > > > > > > > > > * Excluding its initial years, how much has Infosys stayed true to > > > > its philosophy ? How many employees of Infosys are trully stake holders > > > > in > > > > infosys? How much salary infosys pays to a new joinee and is it in > > > > direct > > > > correspondence with the "socialist heart" of N'murthy ? > > > > > > > > There is a popular misconception that a corporate must create value > > > > throughout its lifetime. This is not necessarily true. > > > > > > > > > > The Corporation is supposed to create profits NOT value. Value is > > > > created as byproduct of profit earning. Often > > > > > > > > > > .So some entirty can continue creating profit without any value for > > > society. Thats what you said. Thanks for saying my point. > > > That is the loophole. > > > > > > A rich person need not do anything "productive", just play in stock > > > markets, or exchange markes and can still make money.. > > > > > > > > > maximmum value is created within organizations at the time of > > > > conception - because there is a lot of steam in the engine then. There > > > > are > > > > some organizations like 3M who have an extreme innovation focus and > > > > hence > > > > continue wealth creation long after their conception - but again such > > > > wealth > > > > creation happens essentially due to new ventures. Routine work, say for > > > > example - power generation - is meant to create profits only ... > > > > > > > > Specifically, Infosys has helped empower people in 3 ways .. > > > > > > > > 1. It created immense value at the inception stage making Rupee > > > > millionaires out of many of its initial employees. > > > > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? > > > > > > > > > 2. It continues to inspire entrepreneurs in India who want to repeat > > > > its success > > > > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? > > > > > > > > > 3. It creates value every time it records profits and its share price > > > > soars allowing many people to become millionaires by trading these > > > > shares - > > > > though this contribution would be minimal compared to what it did inits > > > > initial years. > > > > > > > > > > So ? How does that affect the poor? Only 1% of people trade on stock > > > markets.. half of them get poor on stock markets.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Where does capitalism grow after it has exhausted all the > > > > resources/markets available to itself (as you must be knowing american > > > > economy has become stagnant since decades.. and now growing much.. ) ? I > > > > hope all of you know that continuous perpetual "growth" is essential > > > > element of capitalist system. (I'm asking this question, at the risk of > > > > being called a leftist.. because nowadays anyone who speaks against > > > > existing > > > > system is supposed to be a leftist ).. > > > > > > > > Misconception again ... The US is still one of the faster growing > > > > economies of the world. It is economies like Japan and Europe who have > > > > slowed down. But this fact anyway does not negate the point you are > > > > trying > > > > to make that capitalism needs new markets to grow. > > > > > > > > > > Where did you read that US is a fastest growing economy? > > > > > > > > > https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#EconThis > > > is US gover website. > > > > > > Says that it is ~3%. That is considered to be an almost stagflating > > > economy. > > > > > > > > > Yes, capitalism needs new markets to keep growing - but that does not > > > > mean it needs new markets for the SAME products. We are getting confused > > > > because of disparities that NON-ECONOMIC or NON-MARKET factors like > > > > imperialism have created giving rise to a situatation where the demand > > > > of > > > > some old goods is picking up NOW in poor countries and so new markets > > > > are > > > > being discovered for old products in newly developing economies. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Isnt it what the British did to India? > > > > > > However, look at the world today - is it only the developing world > > > > where new markets are being discovered ?? Think of iPods, iPhones, > > > > Mobile > > > > technologies, Social Networking, Biotechnology, fashion technology, > > > > Carbon > > > > trading exchanges - are these not newer markets ??? Was any of these > > > > envisaged when the US and USSR were fighting the battle of > > > > industrialization > > > > and manufacturing of goods ??? > > > > > > > > > > Ans to last que is yes. Most of these things are a fallout of the > > > space race.. USSR was quite ahead in space race.. > > > Did USSR not progress in Science and Tech? > > > > > > How did Madam Curie invent Radioactivity or Newton found gravitation.. > > > they did not need any of these neocolonial liberalism thingsy > > > > > > > > > Yes, capitalism needs new markets to thrive but Capitalism also gives > > > > rise to new markets!! Capitalist economy is a self sustaining chain of > > > > creation of new markets and serving them - this is development - this is > > > > value creation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does not. It can not. The physical resources in the world are > > > limited. That is why the West is coming to east seeking markets.. again.. > > > > > > Calling capitalist economy a self sustaining one is a big joke. How > > > many times have you heard about "sustainability" in today's newspapers? > > > ... > > > the fact is this model cant beocme sustainable.. > > > > > > Grwoth is essential.. for that consuming more resources is essential. > > > It cant be sustainable. > > > ? > > > > > > * Finally, can anyone please tell me how exactly the 2-5-10 b$ of > > > > Bill gates will be spent and how exactly will they eliminate poverty > > > > (eliminate in a sustained manner.. that is it should not lead to > > > > regenreation of poverty)? > > > > > > > > Read all this here: > > > > http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/OurWork/OurApproach/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah i read that. It does not say anything. > > > > > > > > > * What Md. Yunus is doing.. is it really capitalism ? > > > > > > > > No, according to me not. In fact I feel that the whole concept of > > > > microfinance (while having its benefits) is being over glamorized. But > > > > that > > > > would be another topic of discussion - would love to do a discussion on > > > > Micro Finance especially whether and how should we at BM use the > > > > concept in > > > > our work. > > > > > > > > > > Bm should use all such things ofcourse. > > > > > > I think that both communism (in the Russian form) and Capitalism (in > > > the European/American form) have failed. The world is realising this.. > > > > > > Md. Yunus or Bill Gates philonthrophy are just a reflection of this > > > realisation.. People have good intentions.. but the system destroys the > > > intentions.. all these attemps are some escapes from the system.. but > > > not > > > concrete ones.. > > > > > > Real democrasy did not exist in USSR.. neither does it exist in US.. > > > in Russia the burecracy ruled... in US the corporations rule.. people > > > have/had no say in the running of the country.. > > > > > > The world needs different mechanisms.. > > > - Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Abhijit Meenakshi > > > About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > > > www.bharatudaymission.org > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nikhil Kulkarni > > KPMG | http://the-complete-man.blogspot.com| __._,_.___ > > > > www.bharatuday.tk > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bharatudaymission/ > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai/ > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Great > > goal<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTQyZXV0BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Great+goal&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=4tWetmEBO-ThXuF57AVu8g> > > Activities<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNTUwZ3ZsBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Activities&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=hcfv-xYXjdED9M4dtr6mBg> > > Mumbai<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdmYwbDVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Mumbai&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=jrIf27ndx2xDxy0wTiGSZQ> > > Goals<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW9lZjA3BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Goals&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=pYtU09MnIjSvx-hHAYaiZA> > > Chapter<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODd2NDdzBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMTU3MDg2MjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2?t=ms&k=Chapter&w1=Great+goal&w2=Activities&w3=Mumbai&w4=Goals&w5=Chapter&c=5&s=68&g=0&.sig=9T_PhWGHE-of21kqRMDGjQ> > > Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional > > Change settings via the > > Web<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNWxmY2k1BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1NzA4NjIzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDM3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NzUyMTQ2>(Yahoo! > > ID required) > > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest<[EMAIL > > PROTECTED]:+Digest>| Switch > > to Fully Featured<[EMAIL PROTECTED]:+Fully+Featured> > > Visit Your Group > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BM_mumbai;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXVvM2xnBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1NzA4NjIzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDM3NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc1MjE0Ng-->| > > Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>| Unsubscribe > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > __,_._,___ > > > > > > -- > Abhijit Meenakshi > About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > www.bharatudaymission.org > > > -- > Abhijit Meenakshi > About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > www.bharatudaymission.org > > > ============================================================================== TOPIC: Know our future President. And know another betrayal of India. http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/539e3a42fb974c83?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 1 == Date: Tues, Jul 17 2007 3:27 am From: "Dr.Prahalathan KK, BM Chennai" Hello It does not matter whether, in the end, Pratibha Patil wins or loses. In her choice the nation has already lost. Here are some intresting facts from an article by MV Kamath which give a beautiful insight into this sham of an election which Sonia (Mano) Gandhi has staged. 1. Pratibha Patil's name emerged only after five Congress leaders all men were first considered and then, under Leftist pressure, rejected to their utter embarrassment and eternal shame. Think of them; all well-known figures, each distinguished in his own way, men like Pranab Mukherjee, Karan Singh, Shivraj Patil, Arjun Singh and Sushil Kumar Shinde. All of them were humiliated. For the Congress, therefore, to claim that it was their idea to have a woman president is pure humbug and large scale cheating of the public. It will fool nobody. 2. Pratibha has no known track record of having done anything of consequence for women in all these decades of being in public life. And who says that it take only a woman to take the cause of women. Ram mohan Roy, a man was the one who fought against Sati system. 3. So is Rajdeep Sardesai, editor-in-chief of CNN-IBN and a columnist besides, who wants to know who is bothered, that in her selection was also the humiliation of another son of the (Maharashtrian) soil, Shivraj Patil. "Ms.Patil," writes Sardesai, "has revealed no glimmer of threatening talent, no unsettling flamboyance, no unnecessary excellence or extraordinary charisma that her supporters and patrons might undoubtedly have hated or seen as a rival power centre". Shiv Sena kindly note. 4. Forget the fact that Pratibha Patil's brother has been charged with a grievous crime. Forget the fact that the sugar factory of which Pratibha Patil was founding chairman owes a bank some Rs.19 crores and not a paise has been repaid. 5. The co-operative bank in Jalgaon set up by Pratibha Patil ostensibly to empower women had its licence revoked in 2003 by the Reserve Bank of India which charged the bank with a faulty loan policy and a policy which largely benefited her own relatives. One Anjali Dilipsingh Patil who got a waiver of Rs.29.86 lakhs, a sister-in-law Rajkaur Dilipsingh Patil who got a waiver of Rs.2.47 lakhs and yet another sister-in-law Kavita Aravind Patil who got a waiver of Rs.8.59 lakhs. According to reports, in all, a dozen of Pratibha's relatives were granted loans totalling Rs. 2.2 crores, most of them declared Non-performing Assets (NPAs). 6. After an RBI inspection of the bank in 2002, it was declared sick. The gross NPAs of the bank, that is, loans that have gone bad, amount to 65.8 per cent of the total loans and advances. A writ petition filed by the bank's depositors in the High Court says: "Because of the influence of Respondents (Pratibha Patil), the bank has given various loans to the relatives and to a sugar factory of which she is a Director. Her relatives have not paid back the loans. 7. Considering that it was Dr. Kalam who had raised the issue of Sonia Gandhi's ineligibility to the Prime Ministership because of her alien past, it would have been a miracle if the Congress President stood by him at this crucial hour. What the present situation shows is a betrayal of all principles by the Congress. Worse, it is a betrayal of India. If the Congress does not understand this, it understands nothing. It does not matter whether, in the end, Pratibha Patil wins or loses. In her choice the nation has already lost. http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14491518 Forwarding this message will not achieve you anything, neither deleting it will harm you. And this mail originated from my computer, not from Vaishno Devi or Vatican. Its sole aim is to let everyone know who our future President is and feel ashamed for ourselves. Maybe the article is biased... Maybe it says the truth. I've forwarded because I felt satisfied it is the truth. Vande Mataram! Prahalathan <http://www.prahalathan.blogspot.com/> http://www.prahalathan.blogspot.com/ <http://www.bhumichennai.co.nr/> www.BhumiChennai.co.nr India at 59, Better than yesterday, But, not as good as tomorrow! ============================================================================== You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BM_discussion" group. To post to this group, send email to BM_discussion@googlegroups.com or visit http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change the way you get mail from this group, visit: http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/subscribe?hl=en To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ============================================================================== Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en
