The BMW UUC Digest Volume 3 : Issue 610 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <e36> Michellin PS2's Re: Garmin GPS Re: Garmin GPS Re: <OT> GPS for a grandmother M3-challenge.com Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Set of rear headrests for E34 touring on Ebay.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:50:45 -0800 From: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:36 PM 11/5/2007, Marco Romani wrote: The only BMW that comes to mind that has larger diameter (but not thickness) rear rotors is the E46M3. Of course, the rear calipers and pads are always much smaller, so it's not like there's ever any actual rear bias. When the DSC kicks in on my E46 (it's a Touring so there's more rear weight bias than a coupe/sedan), it's generally working the rear brakes before it starts doing anything else (front brakes or cutting throttle). I've found that, all other factors being equal, tires make the biggest difference, which makes sense. For example, when I was running somewhat mediocre Falken ST115s, it almost never came on. But when I first switched to the PS2s, before I learned to tune with tire pressures, it would come on at the slightest provocation. Now that I've gotten this pressure business a bit figured out, though, it's been fine. >And don't forget the weird rear rotor being larger than the front rotor >by-product. My CTS-V rear rotors are IIRC .4 inches larger in d than the >fronts. I guess they need to be if you're really working the DSC (or >Stabilitrac) there will be heat issues with the rears. > >Do BMWs have bigger rear rotors now? > >Marco > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Dawes >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:25 PM >To: KMS- Brett Anderson >Cc: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > > >Hey Brett, >Sorry if it wasn't clear, I guess I figured that was already understood. I >understand that DSC has no direct tie or control over the diff and didn't >mean to imply that. It's been a long day, sorry. What I meant was that DSC >can simulate the performance at the wheels of a LSD via electronic >application of brakes at the single wheel with least traction which >translates the reactive torque to the opposing wheel with more traction >available. > >I disagree with your statement however, but primarily when compared to an >open diff situation: "There is no single action taken by DSC that improves >the performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental >to performance." > >Since DSC can actuate individual wheel brake force, to brake the spinning >wheel only is not exactly detrimental to performance. That wheel would >otherwise spin and reduce the torque available at the opposing wheel with >traction. Apply brakes to that wheel and you allow additional tractive >force available to the opposing wheel until it reaches its own adhesion >limits. Now, to be fair the default full-auto mode of DSC takes this one >step farther (for the 95% of drivers on the road) and reduces engine output >via spark and throttle which is indeed detrimental to performance. But this >can be mitigated by using the semi-auto mode on later e46's. > >Not to mention there are other performance benefits to DSC besides forward >tractive effort (vehicle dynamics) if it is tuned properly. And the best >drivers under well controlled conditions (AKA closed course track >conditions) can out perform DSC in the short run, but I believe this is ONLY >because DSC is tuned for all conditions and then thrust into track duty in >which case it was not really tuned for. Not to mention one of the first >things we all do is alter tires, suspension, brakes, etc and then complain >that factory DSC tuning is too intrusive or not calibrated >correctly.......... > >Traction/stability control is outlawed in certain classes of racing for a >reason and it is not because it would make everyone slower. :) It would >make those who could afford to tune it properly much faster, so to keep >costs down and focus on driver differences with otherwise nearly equal >hardware it gets outlawed. > >Again, a traditional LSD is the best scenario for absolute performance. And >combine DSC with a traditional LSD and you get a great combination. But >here we're just debating how viable an alternative DSC might/might not be to >a costly LSD upgrade on a street car. In Jack's case we're speaking of a >20-25% cost premium on the price of the entire car to add an aftermarket LSD >to a primary street car. I think DSC is a viable alternative. Track days >are another story entirely. > >Cheers, >Chet Dawes > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Nov 5, 2007 7:40 PM > >To: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > > > >Chet, not sure what you mean by this: > > > >Chet Dawes wrote: > >> Comparing an open diff to an electronic LS (aka: DSC) > >> diff is a no brainer in performance applications and even on the > >> street if you're even remotely an enthusiast. > > > >Are you stating that you believe that DSC somehow has limited slip > >capabilities? Your reference to electronic LS implies you think DSC is > >somehow tied into the final drive. > > > >This, of course, is not the case. DSC has the ability to activate the > >brakes to limit wheel spin, but this has no relation whatsoever to > >performance. There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the > >performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental > >to performance. > > > >Brett Anderson > >KMS > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short >Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 >4:36 AM > > > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com Kazuto Okayasu Manager, Desktop Support Services Administrative Computing Services, University of California, Irvine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:19:48 -0800 From: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUCDigest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:00 AM 11/6/2007, Jonathan Brush wrote: >On 11/6/07, Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When the DSC kicks in on my E46 (it's a Touring so there's more rear > > weight bias than a coupe/sedan), it's generally working the rear > > brakes before it starts doing anything else (front brakes or cutting > > throttle). I've found that, all other factors being equal, tires > > make the biggest difference, which makes sense. For example, when I > > was running somewhat mediocre Falken ST115s, it almost never came > > on. But when I first switched to the PS2s, before I learned to tune > > with tire pressures, it would come on at the slightest > > provocation. Now that I've gotten this pressure business a bit > > figured out, though, it's been fine. > >Kazuto, >This is interesting to me. If I understand what you are saying, >running the mediocre tires, presumably with less traction, caused less >DSC intervention than running the better tires, with more traction. >Hmmm. Is that due to your pushing the PS2s more, or to F/R balance? Or >am I totally misunderstanding? Jon, You understand correctly. I can't figure it out either. I've had 4 different tire models on this car, and the cheaper two (the Falkens and Yoko ES100s) had the least DSC intervention, and until now, the expensive two (PS2 and PZero Rosso) had the most. This was all with the 38-40psi street pressures I normally ran with all of them. I run much less pressure at the track, and these days with DSC off, so that's not really a data point. But my more recent experience with the PS2s (I've lowered street pressures down to 35F/36R) seems to tell me that it may be a factor of the better tires being more sensitive to pressures than the cheapies. I know for my first year on the track with the aforementioned Falkens, I couldn't tell a +/- 5psi difference, but now with the Michelins 2psi is about my butt-dyno's threshold, though some of that could be just experience. >Jon Brush >Newton MA >'02 540i/6 Kazuto Okayasu Manager, Desktop Support Services Administrative Computing Services, University of California, Irvine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:00:26 -0500 From: "Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> E46 M3 (325mm front, 328mm rear for standard non-Competition/CSL) and E60 M5 (370mm front, 374mm rear) both have larger rear rotors. - Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > And don't forget the weird rear rotor being larger than the front rotor > by-product. My CTS-V rear rotors are IIRC .4 inches larger in d than the > fronts. I guess they need to be if you're really working the DSC (or > Stabilitrac) there will be heat issues with the rears. > > Do BMWs have bigger rear rotors now? > > Marco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:04:59 +0000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] (UUC Digest) Subject: Re: <e36> Michellin PS2's Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I've run Dunlop SP8000s, Bridgestone S-03s and Toyo T1Rs on my E30. The SP8000s were a great tire with quick turn-in and sharp transient handling. The S-03s had more overall grip but not quite the turn-in and transient response of the SP8000s. The T1Rs are great tires and I'm happy with the, but they don't quite have the overall grip of the S-03s or the turn-in sharpness of the SP8000s. I've never tried the Pilot Sports or PS2s. In fact, I'm not sure they even come in 205/55-15 (my street size, which is great for a non-M E30 but must seem like skinny little things to you E36 M3 owners). This doesn't answer the original question, but might provide some data points for tire shoppers. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:46:20 -0700 >From: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: <e36> Michellin PS2's >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 03:47 PM 11/3/2007, KMS- Brett Anderson wrote: > >I happen to be running T1Rs on my E24. Granted, the car behaves >completely differently than my E46 regardless of tire, but I don't >like them very much. I was running an old set of Dunlop SP8000s >before, and the T1R is inferior in just about every way. I know a >couple of people who replaced T1S with T1R and they're very disappointed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:11:26 +0000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] (UUC Digest) Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Two years ago I bought my wife a Garmin (we named the female voice "Nan") - not sure what model it is, but it has probably been superseded by now anyway. It is easy enough to use. My biggest complaint is that the screen is hard to see in the daytime due to glare. We have no battery life issues when we plug it into the car's cigarette lighter socket. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:03:08 -0600 >From: "Alex Blok" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: Garmin GPS >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I am considering getting a portable GPS, and wanted to tap the collective >wisdom. From my initial research (which has been pretty limited), I've >zeroed in on two Garmin models -- Nuvi 680 and 760: > >http://tinyurl.com/262ot2 > >The list price is the same, and the units have the same specs, except that >760 can do 10 routes (680 does none), and can auto-sort multiple >destinations. These extra features come at the expense of battery life -- 5 >hrs. vs. 7 for the 680. The Garmin site didn't describe what exactly these >features do, and although I can infer from the basic description, a more >detailed explanation would be great. > >Also, any feedback on these or any other comparable models would be greatly >appreciated. I am looking for a unit with a battery, so it can be used while >I am not in the car. > >TIA, >Alex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:08:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Garmin GPS Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Two years ago I bought my wife a Garmin (we named the female voice > "Nan") - not sure what model it is, but it has probably been > superseded by now anyway. It is easy enough to use. My biggest > complaint is that the screen is hard to see in the daytime due to > glare. We have no battery life issues when we plug it into the car's > cigarette lighter socket. I believe the glare issues have been addressed as I have no problems with mine. It even does a rather impressive switch in lighting after the sun sets. Mine is also nicknamed (not by me) but she didn't receive a nice one <g>. I chose the Australian female voice from the many to choose from, reminds me of the TV commercial where the driver starts talking to his GPS like they're in a relationship. Damn those stupid funny TV ads. :-) Carlos 98 M3 w/the talkin' Garmin 89 325i uses a 2D version that folds __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:25:34 +0000 (UTC) From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <OT> GPS for a grandmother Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As we mire down into GPS talk, I'd like to ask if anyone has experience buying a GPS unit for a non-technical person...in this case my 79 yr old mother. She doesn't need an MP3 player or video player, though I'm thinking that integrated traffic might be handy since she'd be using it on and around the 95 corridor Please contact me off list to keep the signal-to-noise ratio down. Marc Plante E36 M3/4/5 80k Vienna, VA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:29:22 +0000 (UTC) From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: M3-challenge.com Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For those of you that haven't heard yet, there's a promotional driving sim being distributed for the new M3. The download is about 350MB and the game includes a fairly nice introductory video of the new M lapping the F1 version of the Ring. Almost makes you consider the ~$55-60k M vs a ~$35-$40k $135i The Sim itself is Soso, though the engine noises are nice for a bit. http://www.m3-challenge.com Marc Plante E36 M3/4/5 80k Vienna, VA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:40:56 -0500 From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Chet Dawes wrote: > I disagree with your statement however, but primarily when compared > to an open diff situation: "There is no single action taken by DSC > that improves the performance of the vehicle. Every action it is > capable of is detrimental to performance." I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been. There is no advantage to DSC over LSD in performance driving applications. I also dispute any advantage over open diffs, but that may come down to driver perception. > Since DSC can actuate individual wheel brake force, to brake the > spinning wheel only is not exactly detrimental to performance. Any time the brake is activated, it's detrimental to performance compared to other options (again, trying to be clearer here). If you have an open diff, then you may accelerate faster with DSC activation. But if you install a limited slip diff, you'll accelerate even faster. > Not to mention there are other performance benefits to DSC besides > forward tractive effort (vehicle dynamics) if it is tuned properly. And therein lies the rub. F1 banned traction control, which means it was working too well. But there are no cars available to the general public that are even remotely "properly" tuned, so for the purpose of this comparison, it's moot. Brett Anderson KMS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:15:34 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You are describing track use. My comment was DSC works well on the street where max acceleration isn't the goal. For track use, a limited slip is the way to go. Torque control to each rear wheel would be better, but within reason, limited slip is what we have. Gary Derian > Any time the brake is activated, it's detrimental to performance compared > to other options (again, trying to be clearer here). If you have an open > diff, then you may accelerate faster with DSC activation. But if you > install a limited slip diff, you'll accelerate even faster. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:38:09 -0800 (PST) From: P Kroon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Has BMW provided a reason that it does not put a LSD into a non-M car? Based on the prices of BMWs, it clearly isn't due to the additional "cost." The only reason I can come up with is warranty based. Thanks, -Paul 95 M3 (for sale) 02 X5 4.4i --- Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are describing track use. My comment was DSC > works well on the street > where max acceleration isn't the goal. For track > use, a limited slip is the > way to go. Torque control to each rear wheel would > be better, but within > reason, limited slip is what we have. > Gary Derian > > > Any time the brake is activated, it's detrimental > to performance compared > > to other options (again, trying to be clearer > here). If you have an open > > diff, then you may accelerate faster with DSC > activation. But if you > > install a limited slip diff, you'll accelerate > even faster. > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:54:19 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> LSD interferes with the DSC. To make the best possible DSC, the difff needs to be open. In order to correct for understeer, the inside rear wheel is braked. This speeds up the outside rear wheel to rotate the car. An LSD prevents that. DSC does these things very well when dealing with moderate speeds and low traction conditions. The new LSDs used in ///M cars has some give compared to the old clutch type LSDs so the DSC has a chance to work, but it is still hindered. I'd imagine the DSC programming for the ///M cars is altered to adjust. Personally, I think BMW is following the correct course by making non ///M cars better for street use by non-trained drivers, and tweaking the ///M cars towards track use. Gary Derian > Has BMW provided a reason that it does not put a LSD > into a non-M car? Based on the prices of BMWs, it > clearly isn't due to the additional "cost." The only > reason I can come up with is warranty based. > > Thanks, > > -Paul > 95 M3 (for sale) > 02 X5 4.4i > > --- Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> You are describing track use. My comment was DSC >> works well on the street >> where max acceleration isn't the goal. For track >> use, a limited slip is the >> way to go. Torque control to each rear wheel would >> be better, but within >> reason, limited slip is what we have. >> Gary Derian >> >> > Any time the brake is activated, it's detrimental >> to performance compared >> > to other options (again, trying to be clearer >> here). If you have an open >> > diff, then you may accelerate faster with DSC >> activation. But if you >> > install a limited slip diff, you'll accelerate >> even faster. >> >> Search the >> > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________________________ >> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, >> founder of the BMW CCA. >> >> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and >> home of the Ultimate >> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:28:12 -0500 From: "Gregory Bradbury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Set of rear headrests for E34 touring on Ebay.de Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> See Ebay auction 250182746540, the complete set of three rear headrests for an E34 touing (not the same as the sedan) in gray leather. No one I know or endorse, I just added these to my E34 touring and it's a great thing to have. Simple to retrofit, I did a writeup that Bruno should be posting on the E34 web site shortly. Gregory in Atlanta ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(13 messages) **********
