The BMW UUC Digest Volume 3 : Issue 609 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:59:53 -0500 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Oh, 'nuther silly question.....how hard is it to find one of these with an LS diff? Are there certain packages which I should be looking for to get one? Heck, is one even available?!?! Thanks. Jack Money '88 M3 Racecar developing nicely '98 740i > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack - > Elephant Motorsports > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 11:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > > Ok, previously I'd asked about E46 323's and the comparison > of that engine to other M/S50 variants. Didn't get a lot of > info ; ) but that's ok, I do appreciate the responses. Now > I'm not looking for a slushbox car, manual only please. This > would be a daily commuter for my wife so mods are not so much > a concern. I'm looking for an E46 323 or 328 (is there a > reason to buy one over the other?) in good shape. Must be a > manual, no autos considered. > Color is not really important but I'd prefer a more subtle > color like silver or similar. Sport package is preferred but > not required. Would MUCH prefer the nonwood interior trim > but again, not a requirement. Extra wheels with snows is a > big plus. Budget is around $9k. I live in Michigan near > Detroit but am wiling to travel for the right car, probably > not west of the rockies though. > > Any leads or info is appreciated. Cheers. > > Jack Money > '88 M3 Racecar > '98 740i > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ____________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of > the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the > Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.21/1110 - Release > Date: 11/4/2007 9:37 PM > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:29:13 -0500 From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Jack - Elephant Motorsports <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To find one with limited slip, look for the Koala Motorsport package..... No LSD available from the factory on any non M car since 1997, except some Z3s that got a Torsen. I can build you one in your choice of ratios, but pricing STARTS at $2650 for the lamest version and can hit $5K in World Challenge race trim. Brett Anderson KMS Jack - Elephant Motorsports wrote: > Oh, 'nuther silly question.....how hard is it to find one of these with an > LS diff? Are there certain packages which I should be looking for to get > one? Heck, is one even available?!?! Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:30:26 -0600 From: "Eric Giles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Nope, never available as an option on any E46, except of course the M3. BMW hasn't offered a limited slip differential on a non-M BMW since the early years of E36 production. Your only option is to have one built for you, and there are people out there that do that-but you will pay close to $2000 for one if I remember correctly. >From your stated budget, you will most likely be looking at a high mileage '99-'00 323i. A couple thousand more and you can get a 328i, but for an everyday commuter the 323i is sufficient. Overall the E46 is a great car-they have their weak points, but overall they are solid and reliable. I have owned three or four of them and loved them all! Eric Giles '88 M3 '02 X5 4.4i > Oh, 'nuther silly question.....how hard is it to find one of these with an > LS diff? Are there certain packages which I should be looking for to get > one? Heck, is one even available?!?! Thanks. > > Jack Money > '88 M3 Racecar developing nicely > '98 740i ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:36:05 -0500 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well dang, no LS diff. Oh well. Thanks for all the info and help! Hey Brett, did you see my questions about compatibility of these engines? Specifically I'm wondering if US S50/52/M50/52 parts work in the double vanos M52...specifically the cams. Just curious. Cheers all. Jack Money '88 M3 Racecar '98 740i ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:20:37 -0500 From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Jack - Elephant Motorsports <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I doubt it. How would the Vanos work with the non vanos exhaust cam? I'm not aware of any compatibility between these engine families, unless you're talking full build, race motor, with lots of R&D. Marco Romani might be able to chip in on that one. Brett Anderson KMS Jack - Elephant Motorsports wrote: > Well dang, no LS diff. Oh well. Thanks for all the info and help! > > Hey Brett, did you see my questions about compatibility of these engines? > Specifically I'm wondering if US S50/52/M50/52 parts work in the double > vanos M52...specifically the cams. Just curious. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:30:11 -0500 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'KMS- Brett Anderson'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Darn but then for a commuter car that's fine. I was only thinking a bit longer term where Shannon would be tired of it and I could relegate it to track use. Course at that point I could simply drop an M/S50 into it and be done with the seemingly stepchild motor. Thanks Brett, Chip, Kazuto, Jamie, and everyone else! Found a 328 in OH that I'm going to look into...we'll see. Cheers. Jack Money '88 M3 Racecar '98 740i > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KMS- > Brett Anderson > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:21 PM > To: Jack - Elephant Motorsports > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > > I doubt it. How would the Vanos work with the non vanos exhaust cam? > > I'm not aware of any compatibility between these engine > families, unless you're talking full build, race motor, with > lots of R&D. Marco Romani might be able to chip in on that one. > > Brett Anderson > KMS > > > Jack - Elephant Motorsports wrote: > > Well dang, no LS diff. Oh well. Thanks for all the info and help! > > > > Hey Brett, did you see my questions about compatibility of > these engines? > > Specifically I'm wondering if US S50/52/M50/52 parts work > in the double > > vanos M52...specifically the cams. Just curious. > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ____________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of > the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the > Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release > Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:14:49 -0800 From: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 12:59 PM 11/5/2007, Jack - Elephant Motorsports wrote: It's called a 'M3' Since the advent of the junk 'electronic LSD' called DSC, the only non-M BMW-made car with a LSD is a Mini Cooper S. You could always buy one from Brett... > Oh, 'nuther silly question.....how hard is it to find one of these with an >LS diff? Are there certain packages which I should be looking for to get >one? Heck, is one even available?!?! Thanks. > >Jack Money >'88 M3 Racecar developing nicely >'98 740i Kazuto Okayasu Manager, Desktop Support Services Administrative Computing Services, University of California, Irvine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:51:33 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DSC works great for street use. Gary Derian > Since the advent of the junk 'electronic LSD' called DSC, the only > non-M BMW-made car with a LSD is a Mini Cooper S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:15:05 -0500 From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unless you like to drive your car in adverse conditions..... DSC will help stop you getting killed, but it won't help you get moving in an icy parking lot, or get up that snow covered hill. Brett Anderson KMS Gary Derian wrote: > DSC works great for street use. > Gary Derian > >> Since the advent of the junk 'electronic LSD' called DSC, the only >> non-M BMW-made car with a LSD is a Mini Cooper S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 19:12:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brett, While I agree there are certain instances where DSC can hinder, these are very few and even dependent on which version of DSC you're using. Comparing an open diff to an electronic LS (aka: DSC) diff is a no brainer in performance applications and even on the street if you're even remotely an enthusiast. And certainly the DSC diff version is no substitute for a true LSD in my opinion. Unfortunately in Jack's case (based on model year), he's probably looking at the initial e46 DSC package offering without the brake-only feature that later versions have (a change somewhere between 2000 and 2003). On the later models you have 3 options. Full auto, semi-auto and off. This version is on our 2003 325iT. The original DSC version (as in what is on my 2000 323i) has only full auto and off settings. The semi-auto version will allow a much closer 'simulation' of a clutch pack LSD which will allow both wheels to slip and allow you to get up that snow covered hill, icy parking lot, etc. I don't have my owner's manual in front of my but I think the semi-auto is a brake-only application with a much wider slip allowance before system interaction. And I have to say I've yet to be stuck with my 323i anywhere in Michigan even without dedicated winter tires. But then again, I don't live very far off the beaten path and Jack does. Put winter-only tires on it and I'm convinced it'll go anywhere ground clearance would allow. Cheers, Chet -----Original Message----- >From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Nov 5, 2007 5:15 PM >To: >Cc: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > >Unless you like to drive your car in adverse conditions..... > >DSC will help stop you getting killed, but it won't help you get moving >in an icy parking lot, or get up that snow covered hill. > >Brett Anderson >KMS > >Gary Derian wrote: >> DSC works great for street use. >> Gary Derian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:25:13 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey Brett, Sorry if it wasn't clear, I guess I figured that was already understood. I understand that DSC has no direct tie or control over the diff and didn't mean to imply that. It's been a long day, sorry. What I meant was that DSC can simulate the performance at the wheels of a LSD via electronic application of brakes at the single wheel with least traction which translates the reactive torque to the opposing wheel with more traction available. I disagree with your statement however, but primarily when compared to an open diff situation: "There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental to performance." Since DSC can actuate individual wheel brake force, to brake the spinning wheel only is not exactly detrimental to performance. That wheel would otherwise spin and reduce the torque available at the opposing wheel with traction. Apply brakes to that wheel and you allow additional tractive force available to the opposing wheel until it reaches its own adhesion limits. Now, to be fair the default full-auto mode of DSC takes this one step farther (for the 95% of drivers on the road) and reduces engine output via spark and throttle which is indeed detrimental to performance. But this can be mitigated by using the semi-auto mode on later e46's. Not to mention there are other performance benefits to DSC besides forward tractive effort (vehicle dynamics) if it is tuned properly. And the best drivers under well controlled conditions (AKA closed course track conditions) can out perform DSC in the short run, but I believe this is ONLY because DSC is tuned for all conditions and then thrust into track duty in which case it was not really tuned for. Not to mention one of the first things we all do is alter tires, suspension, brakes, etc and then complain that factory DSC tuning is too intrusive or not calibrated correctly.......... Traction/stability control is outlawed in certain classes of racing for a reason and it is not because it would make everyone slower. :) It would make those who could afford to tune it properly much faster, so to keep costs down and focus on driver differences with otherwise nearly equal hardware it gets outlawed. Again, a traditional LSD is the best scenario for absolute performance. And combine DSC with a traditional LSD and you get a great combination. But here we're just debating how viable an alternative DSC might/might not be to a costly LSD upgrade on a street car. In Jack's case we're speaking of a 20-25% cost premium on the price of the entire car to add an aftermarket LSD to a primary street car. I think DSC is a viable alternative. Track days are another story entirely. Cheers, Chet Dawes -----Original Message----- >From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Nov 5, 2007 7:40 PM >To: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > >Chet, not sure what you mean by this: > >Chet Dawes wrote: >> Comparing an open diff to an electronic LS (aka: DSC) >> diff is a no brainer in performance applications and even on the >> street if you're even remotely an enthusiast. > >Are you stating that you believe that DSC somehow has limited slip >capabilities? Your reference to electronic LS implies you think DSC is >somehow tied into the final drive. > >This, of course, is not the case. DSC has the ability to activate the >brakes to limit wheel spin, but this has no relation whatsoever to >performance. There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the >performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental >to performance. > >Brett Anderson >KMS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:40:28 -0500 From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Chet, not sure what you mean by this: Chet Dawes wrote: > Comparing an open diff to an electronic LS (aka: DSC) > diff is a no brainer in performance applications and even on the > street if you're even remotely an enthusiast. Are you stating that you believe that DSC somehow has limited slip capabilities? Your reference to electronic LS implies you think DSC is somehow tied into the final drive. This, of course, is not the case. DSC has the ability to activate the brakes to limit wheel spin, but this has no relation whatsoever to performance. There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental to performance. Brett Anderson KMS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:36:01 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> And don't forget the weird rear rotor being larger than the front rotor by-product. My CTS-V rear rotors are IIRC .4 inches larger in d than the fronts. I guess they need to be if you're really working the DSC (or Stabilitrac) there will be heat issues with the rears. Do BMWs have bigger rear rotors now? Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Dawes Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:25 PM To: KMS- Brett Anderson Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 Hey Brett, Sorry if it wasn't clear, I guess I figured that was already understood. I understand that DSC has no direct tie or control over the diff and didn't mean to imply that. It's been a long day, sorry. What I meant was that DSC can simulate the performance at the wheels of a LSD via electronic application of brakes at the single wheel with least traction which translates the reactive torque to the opposing wheel with more traction available. I disagree with your statement however, but primarily when compared to an open diff situation: "There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental to performance." Since DSC can actuate individual wheel brake force, to brake the spinning wheel only is not exactly detrimental to performance. That wheel would otherwise spin and reduce the torque available at the opposing wheel with traction. Apply brakes to that wheel and you allow additional tractive force available to the opposing wheel until it reaches its own adhesion limits. Now, to be fair the default full-auto mode of DSC takes this one step farther (for the 95% of drivers on the road) and reduces engine output via spark and throttle which is indeed detrimental to performance. But this can be mitigated by using the semi-auto mode on later e46's. Not to mention there are other performance benefits to DSC besides forward tractive effort (vehicle dynamics) if it is tuned properly. And the best drivers under well controlled conditions (AKA closed course track conditions) can out perform DSC in the short run, but I believe this is ONLY because DSC is tuned for all conditions and then thrust into track duty in which case it was not really tuned for. Not to mention one of the first things we all do is alter tires, suspension, brakes, etc and then complain that factory DSC tuning is too intrusive or not calibrated correctly.......... Traction/stability control is outlawed in certain classes of racing for a reason and it is not because it would make everyone slower. :) It would make those who could afford to tune it properly much faster, so to keep costs down and focus on driver differences with otherwise nearly equal hardware it gets outlawed. Again, a traditional LSD is the best scenario for absolute performance. And combine DSC with a traditional LSD and you get a great combination. But here we're just debating how viable an alternative DSC might/might not be to a costly LSD upgrade on a street car. In Jack's case we're speaking of a 20-25% cost premium on the price of the entire car to add an aftermarket LSD to a primary street car. I think DSC is a viable alternative. Track days are another story entirely. Cheers, Chet Dawes -----Original Message----- >From: KMS- Brett Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Nov 5, 2007 7:40 PM >To: Chet Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [UUC] <WTB> E46 323 or 328 > >Chet, not sure what you mean by this: > >Chet Dawes wrote: >> Comparing an open diff to an electronic LS (aka: DSC) >> diff is a no brainer in performance applications and even on the >> street if you're even remotely an enthusiast. > >Are you stating that you believe that DSC somehow has limited slip >capabilities? Your reference to electronic LS implies you think DSC is >somehow tied into the final drive. > >This, of course, is not the case. DSC has the ability to activate the >brakes to limit wheel spin, but this has no relation whatsoever to >performance. There is no single action taken by DSC that improves the >performance of the vehicle. Every action it is capable of is detrimental >to performance. > >Brett Anderson >KMS Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(13 messages) **********
