That's the first time I've heard of the sum of unfavorable tolerances! I love it. Let's hope we're still around and working on these things ten years from now. I guess at some point we'll have to start using parts from newer machines.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > Yep, my same experience re: engines. Miss those days! > > Agreed on the "throwing parts at it" idea; if it's any consolation, you > can look at my 2915 and know that they're all going to need replacement > pretty soon anyway, most likely! :) There is a guy near me in WA that > tests and repairs the giemme boards and others, but his fee to repair the > giemme is more than a new one, so he said "not worth it". He also sells > super high end burrs for many grinders, as an aside. > > The pressure thing makes no sense to me--the grind/coffee doesn't care > what type of pump is pushing water through it, you know? Ideal pressure is > ideal pressure. I think you'll find many repetitions of the 8.5/9 bar > thing in these archives, I think even from Todd, but I can't point to a > specific thread to be sure. In any case, 1 bar shouldn't make a huge > difference, but at times people have posted here that think 12 bar is a > good idea, etc. which it isn't. To your point, I'm guessing the spring on > the opv and the pressure meter both probably have errors bigger than that > anyway! :) As the old BMW motorcycle engineers used to call it, "The sum > of unfavorable tolerances". Love that. > > Best, > bmc > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 6, 2016, at 08:56, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks Ben. I keep thinking maybe I should have thrown in the towel as > well but then I get it fixed and typically it goes a long while before > breaking again. I'm sure that whatever is causing this has been the root > cause of most of the problems I've had lately. I hate throwing parts at a > problem but I also hate to have it fail and wait a week or two for parts. I > may be smarter to just wait and let it fail rather than pull the whole > thing apart and replace parts that are working fine. I built engines for a > while and learned a lot about parts wearing in. I had a 1980 bronco that > blew a rear main bearing seal under warranty. I was at the dealership when > they pulled the rear cap off and noticed the mechanic had a new rear > bearing on the table. When I asked him he said he was going to replace that > too "just in case". I looked at the old bearing and it was fine and told > him to reuse it. He argued but finally did it. I never had trouble with > that engine again and sold it with over 250,000 miles on it. A friend of > mine had the same trouble and they replaced his bearing and several years > later is seized. Not sure if wearing in had anything to do with it but > that's what I think happened. Sometimes if you take something apart and > change the orientation the wear surfaces will cause a problem. > Ben on the vibe pump machines I think the pressure with a blind pf is > supposed to be 10 and the brew pressure 9. With my opv it's 10 one time and > 10.5 or thereabouts the next time but I'm getting 9 when I pull a shot. > Todd told me that years ago and I looked it up again in the manual and > that's what it says there too. The lower pressure is for the rotary > machine. I have no idea why there is a difference. > Herman > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> The strap wrench might work. You'll have to pull the steam boiler for >> the solenoid anyway, and by then the brew boiler is pretty simple as well. >> >> The solenoid is an interesting question. Mine was 8 years old and >> chattering badly, but I never had an issue with it until I disassembled >> this summer and descaled (at least that's how I remember it). The solenoid >> piston had some buildup on it, which I cleaned completely and the seals >> were fine. I sort of wonder about it and it reminds me of the automotive >> world where they talk about "wear groups" or similar--the idea being two >> parts that have worn in to each other in a specific way, and so moving them >> around causes problems. And example being pushrods or maybe cylinder >> valves. My point is, I wonder if the mineral buildup on the piston wore >> away metal over time on the brass that is moves within, and when I removed >> the scale, it allowed slop that let the piston get sort of skewed and >> causing sticking/chattering. I know this is all sort of silly, but it's >> just stuff I think about. In any case, the new solenoid/piston works >> flawlessly and nearly silently, so problem solved. >> >> I hate to say it, but as I think back over my troubles this past year, >> the technician in me says "highly unlikely to have multiple failures at >> once", but the reality of it is that I had all of the following fail within >> a few months: >> High limit switch >> Heating element >> PID display/thermostat >> Giemme controller >> Solenoid >> Power switch >> Pressure stat >> >> I've thought about throwing in the towel a few times, but by now, I have >> replaced almost every electrical part on the machine and so I hope I'm good >> to go for another good long time, with the expected failure of pstat from >> time to time, and the remaining element. Not to mention the pump is now 5 >> years old...sigh. Apparently the solid state relay almost never fails, so >> I'm told by WLL. >> >> One other tip--the sealant you get from WLL is really great stuff--super >> easy to use and sets fast. I learned the hard way the other day, when >> working on a hot machine, that it sets almost instantly on hot metal. I >> had a fitting 90 degrees from where I needed it and the stuff was set. So >> had to break that loose again, clean, let cool, and redo. So if you have >> to work hot, use extra of it and work really fast, have all wrenches ready, >> etc. >> >> Ah well, keep the faith, you'll find it. >> >> b >> >> Sent from my apple IIe >> >> On Jan 6, 2016, at 06:18, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks Ben. I'm guessing it's the controller that's causing the issue >> then. It almost has to be that or the solenoid. I'm going to call Wll and >> see if I can get the parts on order and shipped. I'll probably go ahead and >> replace the elements while I'm at it and do the pid at the same time.I have >> a strap wrench so I can probably hold the boilers in place an screw the >> elements out with an air wrench. If not I can pull them and clamp them in a >> vice. When I'm finished hopefully it will be as good as new. Thanks for all >> of the info it has helped tremendously! >> Herman >> >> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:31 AM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yes, the black box is the giemme, and the display is the gicar. >>> The sensor in the steam boiler is just a metal rod, I don't think it can >>> really go bad. Perhaps if it was totally scaled? But doubtful. All it >>> really does is short circuit to the water which stops the pump. >>> >>> Best, >>> bmc >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jan 5, 2016, at 19:02, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hopefully I'll get the chance to pull it apart and check and see what >>> controller I have. I do know there's a black box under the display on the >>> face of the machine. I'm guessing that's what you're talking about I'm >>> wondering if the sensor in the steam boiler could be bad? I was hoping Todd >>> would jump in but I'll try WLL again tomorrow I guess. Thanks for the help >>> and for the invoice. Maybe if I tear into the machine again tomorrow I will >>> see something. >>> H >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Inline below. >>>> best, >>>> bmc >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Jan 5, 2016, at 15:30, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ben the pump is 2 or 3 months old and I have it set to 10.5 bar with a >>>> blind portafilter. It gets there pretty quick so I don't think that's the >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> --That's pretty high; I doubt it's the problem, but I wonder if that is >>>> enough pressure to keep the solenoid from opening and letting the steam >>>> boiler fill. Still seems like it would open once you were not pulling >>>> shots. In any case, I'd set the blind pressure down to 9, shooting for >>>> about 8.5 when pulling a shot. >>>> >>>> I'm guessing the element is like one in a water heater and you're >>>> correct that it either works or doesn't. >>>> >>>> --Yes. It's just a copper coil. >>>> >>>> I think you're right about a lack of water in the tank. After the cool >>>> down the pump ran a long time before it cut off. Not sure why leaving it >>>> plugged in caused this to happen or even if that had anything to do with >>>> it. >>>> >>>> --I doubt it had anything to do with it. Probably the cooling and >>>> heating cycle was what "fixed" whatever was wrong. >>>> >>>> Will the pid kit fix the controller part? >>>> >>>> --No. You have a controller from Gicar (either the old red two-digit >>>> one or the blue PID one), and a separate control box from Giemme (it's the >>>> black box mounted front left below the Gicar one). The Giemme has relays >>>> in it and controls the pump and I think the solenoid as well. >>>> >>>> Do you still have the part number for the solenoid? Not sure why I put >>>> relay it's the overtemp switch but I'm guessing that when the switch kicked >>>> the time before it was the same cause. If the tank was low and the pump >>>> didn't come on what would cause that? >>>> >>>> --Still not sure, and that's the main question here. In my case, the >>>> Giemme had one of the two relays that was clearly burning out--the clear >>>> blue housing had black inside it, etc. for that set of points. I'm trying >>>> to recall without reading all my old posts, but I'm almost certain that my >>>> failure this summer was the pump failing to run. I think I still got water >>>> in the steam boiler because I am plumbed in with 60psi of pressure in the >>>> line, and so when the solenoid opened, I think the boiler filled without >>>> the pump and I didn't know it. On a vibe pump this wouldn't happen. I >>>> also could pull shots because the lever switch overrides the Giemme and >>>> makes the pump run--basically hard wires it. The pump only runs for the >>>> steam boiler when the giemme tells it too, and the giemme also opens the >>>> solenoid at the same time. When the water reaches the probe in the steam >>>> boiler, the giemme reverses both of these things (pump and solenoid). At >>>> least that is my understanding and empirical results. >>>> >>>> I will dig up the invoice for all these parts and it will have the part >>>> numbers on it. My money is on the giemme. You can pull it out really >>>> easily and slip the case off of it; then you can see the relay points as a >>>> first easy thing to look at. >>>> >>>> Wish I had a more definitive answer for you. >>>> b >>>> >>>> Thanks for your ideas. >>>> h >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Herman, >>>>> Puzzling over your questions a bit this afternoon. >>>>> >>>>> Backing into it--you said the "relay" on the steam boiler--do you mean >>>>> the small switch on the top of the boiler? If so, that's an over-temp >>>>> switch, and I'd agree it points to the boiler being dry or mostly dry. >>>>> Here's my thought process: >>>>> For whatever reason, the boiler didn't refill for your first day of >>>>> trouble, but there was still a bit of water, maybe just enough to produce >>>>> a >>>>> little steam, but it took a long time due to little or no immersion of the >>>>> heat element. The next time, the element kept heating, trying to achieve >>>>> steam pressure, and since no steam was being produced, the element >>>>> overheated and popped the overlimit switch (which I think you just >>>>> replaced, didn't you?). >>>>> >>>>> If all this is true, then the problem would be why the boiler isn't >>>>> filling. Given my recent trials and tribulations, I'd guess one of a few >>>>> things. >>>>> >>>>> --The solenoid is, by default, sending water to the brew group; when >>>>> the steam boiler calls for water the solenoid opens and lets water bypass >>>>> into the steam boiler until it hits the probe to turn off the pump and >>>>> close the solenoid. So, the solenoid could be sticking, or the giemme >>>>> controller could be dying. I had BOTH of these happen this year, not at >>>>> the same time. The new solenoid is nearly silent; the old one was very >>>>> loud, even before it started chattering near the end. >>>>> >>>>> --Perhaps the pump is weak/dying? Easy check on that would be to >>>>> pressurize against a blind PF to see if you're getting good pressure from >>>>> the pump. Also, try pulling the white wire off the top of the boiler that >>>>> sets water level. The pump should run and solenoid should open, and then >>>>> stop when you replace it. Just a quick check on the solenoid and pump >>>>> functions. >>>>> >>>>> --Perhaps the system had air in it? I don't recall if you're plumbed >>>>> or pour-over; if the latter, maybe check that your intake line isn't >>>>> floating and re-prime with the turkey baster trick. Maybe it got prime >>>>> overnight when it was working fine the next day. >>>>> >>>>> As to why it worked again the next day--this happened many times with >>>>> my machine this summer and winter before final failure of the various >>>>> parts. And was maddening as hell. A stuck solenoid that was warm would >>>>> unstick when the machine cooled, only to stick again, etc. etc. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure, but I don't think the heating element will be a partial >>>>> failure--I think it tends to work or not work, but others may correct me >>>>> on >>>>> that. You can easily test ohms on it with power wires disconnected and I >>>>> think water out of the boiler. Something like 13 or 14 is good, if memory >>>>> serves. >>>>> >>>>> If you do replace the elements, you can do it with the boilers in the >>>>> machine, so long as you can get an impact wrench (but you do risk spinning >>>>> the boiler and wrecking the copper tubes attached. Probably safer to pull >>>>> them and use a jig in a vice to keep from bending them, and doesn't take >>>>> all that much more time. If you have no jig, you can get away with only >>>>> clamping on the end of the boiler where the element is, i.e. so you're >>>>> clamping across the base which has more structure than the middle. Still >>>>> a >>>>> bit sketchy though. >>>>> >>>>> I replaced my solenoid last weekend (update to follow) and it took me >>>>> about 1.5 hours to pull the steam boiler assembly, replace the solenoid, >>>>> and replace the assembly. It's not a terrible process. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, hope this helps lead you in the direction of a working repair. >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> bmc >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 5, 2016, at 13:40, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Any ideas? Todd? The machine is working great today as well but I know >>>>> it's a matter of time until it fails again. >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-5, herman dickens wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all. My brewtus was working fine up until this morning. I was >>>>>> making a latte and the steam pressure went almost to zero with the red >>>>>> light still on. It took a while to heat the milk with no microfoam. I was >>>>>> in a hurry and forgot about it until lunch and tried to make another >>>>>> latte. >>>>>> Same thing happened. If I turned the steam wand off the pressure would >>>>>> build back up but it was slow. After trying to use it for 5 or 10 minutes >>>>>> it popped the relay on the steam boiler. Any ideas other than the steam >>>>>> element? If I have to pull it apart to change that element I will also >>>>>> replace the brew element at the same time. Thanks for any advice. >>>>>> Herman >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Brewtus" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Brewtus" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Brewtus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Brewtus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Brewtus" group. 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