--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
snips..
>
> Well, I don't take scripture literally. And, I'd be
> curious to see which
> technique of interpretation your father was taught
> in his study. Mine
> involves the standard higher criticism used by the
> non neo-evangelical
> Protestant and Catholic scripture scholars. (As
> well as some Orthadox, my
> grad. school teacher was a Russian Orthadox priest
> who knew the family of
> the Czar's chaplin rather well.)
>
Er, actually Dad just sat and read it, then thought
about it. Then rinse and repeat. He passed on his
stunningly complex method of analysis on to me.
> > If we're taking this as divided up, I don't think
> that
> > the last part is ambiguous at all.
> >
>
> Right it is not. The people do have a right to bear
> arms. But what is it.
> Well, with the grammar that I suggests it modifies
> the noun phrase "well
> regulated militia" In other words: well regulated
> militia are the physical
> expression of the people's right to bear arms.
>
Okay, i'm going to try a different tack and throw in
some quotes, since we're arguing the mindset of the
framers:
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole
people, except for a few public officials." -George
Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.
and
"The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." -Title
10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code.
(see http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/)
>
> > > They are
> > > Amendment I
> > >
> > > Congress shall make no law respecting an
> > > establishment of religion, or
> > > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
> abridging
> > > the freedom of speech,
> > > or of the press; or the right of the people
> > > peaceably to assemble, and to
> > > petition the government for a redress of
> grievances.
> > >
> > >
> > > Amendment III
> > >
> > > No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered
> in
> > > any house, without the
> > > consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in
> a
> > > manner to be prescribed
> > > by law.
> > >
> > >
> > > Can you see the significant contrast between I
> and
> > > III and II?
> > >
> > > II is the only one with a preamble.
> > >
> > > Others have suggested that the grammar of the
> time
> > > be considered. That's
> > > very valid, and I'd welcome any analysis based
> on
> > > the changes in the rules
> > > of grammar from then till now.
> > >
> >
> > I'm afraid I didn't follow you on the last one
> there.
>
> The difference in the formulation of the 2nd and all
> the other ammendments
> is not accidental. The 2nd ammendment specifically
> gives a context for the
> right to bear arms: in well regulated militia.
> Nowhere else is a right in
> the bill of rights specifically restricted to cases
> where the right is
> exercised only in a well regulated fashion.
>
I'll bite, what did they mean by regulated?
> > I know that the framers were lawyers and they were
> > doing their work knowing that other lawyers later
> > would interpret it, but these were some quite
> > visionary men who had the utmost respect of their
> > peers and the people at large. They wanted to
> create
> > a just and lasting country so that they could
> leave
> > their mark on history. Would they write something
> so
> > important that the common man could not read it
> > plainly and know what it pledges?
>
> Well, I assume you know that, at the start, the
> common man could not vote.
> Universal white male sufferage was a latter
> development. First it occured
> in new states, then it took hold in the first 13
> states in the union.
>
> Second, even those who could vote, couldn't vote for
> senators or the
> president. The idea was for them to choose wise men
> who would make the
> distincition. The founders of the US were well
> educated men of the
> enlightenment. It is reasonable to assume that they
> were more worried about
> the understanding of someone with a suitable
> education than the
> understanding of the workers who could not vote
> anyways.
>
> >Would they want that man to read it and think
> "great, another clerk
> > wrote this, he was just like the oppressors they
> just got done casting off
> of themselves"
>
>
> Well, I think that they felt that satisfying the
> state legislators and
> having a working system was their main goal. I
> don't think that worrying
> about the man in the street was common.
>
If you really believe that the men who founded this
country were so aristocratic, narrow and almost wholly
self serving, I pity you sir. Their writings and
debates say otherwise, and their words clearly
expressed their thoughts- which were quite vehement at
times.
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed
to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of
the press or the rights of conscience; or
to prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..."
-Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the
Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at
86-87 (Peirce & Hale, eds.,
Boston, 1850.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but
downright force. Whenever you give up that force,
you are ruined...The great object is that every man be
armed. Everyone who is able
might have a gun.: -Patrick Henry.
"On every question of construction (of the
Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time
when the Constitution was adopted,
recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out
of the text, or invented against it,
conform to the probable one in which it was
passed." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson,
June 12, 1823, The Complete
Jefferson, p322.
The greatest of our Presidents even went as far as to
warn us of the danger posed by our own governing
bodies:
"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is
a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible
master".
-George Washington
"We, the people are the rightful masters of both
Congress and the courts - not to overthrow the
Constitution, but to overthrow men who
pervert the Constitution."
- Abraham Lincoln
um. this is where I sign my name. I don't think
anyone has ever quoted me. =)
dean
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