On 13 Sep 2001, at 17:04, Dan Minette wrote:
> > Can you give a reason why Arafat would refuse if he was offered
> > everything he wanted? And I mean a *real* reason, not
> > propaganda-like answers like
> "he
> > wants the complete destruction of Israel".
> >
>
> Well, he probably wasn't offered everything he wanted, I'll agree to
> that. He was offered everything he could possibly be expected to be
> offered. His last demand could not have been met without turning
> Israel into a Palestinian state.
>
> The offer on the table for his consideration was:
>
> 1) West Bank fully turned over the Palestinians, with the exception of
> Jerusalem. This was acceptable to both parties.
And apart from a couple of small settlements, yes. Basically
redrawing the border slightly to avoid regions with a large Jewish
majority.
>
> 2) East Jerusalem being run under a complex, and actually quite
> imaginative, power sharing
> arrangement.
Right..they proposed to expand "Jerusalem" to cover some of the
surrounding region as well..it was quite a good soloution, IMHO.
There were were some MINOR points, but...
> My memory is that there were still quibbles about this offer, but
> nothing that couldn't be hammered out.
>
> 3) Various security arrangements:
> Worked out.
>
> The sticking point was the "right of return." That is the
> Palestinians who's families use to live in Israel had the right to
> return to Israel. IIRC, that would make Israel a majority Palestinian
> state. (If not now, very soon.) The Jewish residents would no longer
> be able to run Israel. Given the fact that hatred of Israel has been
> taught for years, and that the Palestinians have had the destruction
> of Israel as part of their charter up until approximately 10 years
> ago, do you really think that it was immoral of Israel to refuse this?
The fact is, why have the other Arab states left their "fellow arabs"
in the camps, for DECADES. They're not too keen on the palestian
arabs, when it comes down to it....
And yes, Israel is a Jewish state. Yes, just over a million arabs live
in Israel, and they're good citizens - many volunteered to take over
critcal jobs to free up soliders for the front lines during the 6 Day
War and the You Kippur war..something about Israel being a
deomocracy and the arab countries not...
Does that mean, if a Palestian state is created, that we should
accept the Palestians who origionally lived in Israel back? I stress,
they would have their OWN state. Why should they have the right
to live in Israel in that case?
> Let me suggest that if that were part of the agreement, it would
> basically be a negociated surrender. I would fully expect that a
> written guarantee that any Israeli could become an American citizen at
> will would also had been required. I know Great Britain is sort of an
> exception, but most Jewish people I know only feel safe in Israel or
> the US. (Andy can offer a different perspective on this.)
Well, the USA tends to grant a VERY small number of VISA's to
Jews, especially students. Thus, a lot of younger (early 20's)
Jewish people come to England to study.
> As far as occupying land, it should end. But, it is not unreasonable
> to end it as part of a comprehensive peace settlement. Let me recall
> history here.
I agree, we should pull back from settlements in Palestian majority
areas.
> It was attacked again in 1968. This time it refused to give the lands
> back. In their defense, the original borders were hard to secure.
Try imposible...look, Israel is TINY. From it's northern borders,
fighter jets can be over Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in under half an hour!
In the 6 day war, Isreal struck first, a few days before the planned
arab offensiuve, and captureed ELEVEN times their land area! The
Sinai was returned to Egypt, but not the gaza strip... (it's not prize
land by ANY means..Egypt didn't really WANT it back..)
> It was attacked in 1973 (IIRC that was the year) on Yom Kippur (sp).
> It barely survived. Do you think that, when Arab leaders vowed to
> kill the Jews, that it was unreasonable for the people of Israel to
> think that they would all die if they lost?
Israel lost nearly half it's teratory before it could rally and push the
Syrian and Lenbonese (sp) army back, yes.
> Since for over 30 years the Palestinians _explicitly_ called for the
> destruction of Israel, is it irrational to feel that many Palestinians
> feel the same way, and if the government of Israel were turned over to
> them, and they control the they would use that control to start a
> pogum?
The Palestians constantly primise to revise their school textbooks,
to stop putting out anti-Israel properganda on their radio stations.
They have NOT.
> Remember, the only real sticking point in the negotiations late last
> year was the right of return.
It was a farce..if they have a state, they don't NEED that right. After
all, the whole point is they want a place of their own, right? Why
stick on the right of return if you REALLY want peace?
Andy
Dawn Falcon
