----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Crystall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Brin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: Terms for Peace in the Middle East
> On 13 Sep 2001, at 17:04, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > > Can you give a reason why Arafat would refuse if he was offered
> > > everything he wanted? And I mean a *real* reason, not
> > > propaganda-like answers like
> > "he
> > > wants the complete destruction of Israel".
> > >
> >
> > Well, he probably wasn't offered everything he wanted, I'll agree to
> > that. He was offered everything he could possibly be expected to be
> > offered. His last demand could not have been met without turning
> > Israel into a Palestinian state.
> >
> > The offer on the table for his consideration was:
> >
> > 1) West Bank fully turned over the Palestinians, with the exception of
> > Jerusalem. This was acceptable to both parties.
>
> And apart from a couple of small settlements, yes. Basically
> redrawing the border slightly to avoid regions with a large Jewish
> majority.
> >
> > 2) East Jerusalem being run under a complex, and actually quite
> > imaginative, power sharing
> > arrangement.
>
> Right..they proposed to expand "Jerusalem" to cover some of the
> surrounding region as well..it was quite a good soloution, IMHO.
> There were were some MINOR points, but...
>
> > My memory is that there were still quibbles about this offer, but
> > nothing that couldn't be hammered out.
> >
> > 3) Various security arrangements:
> > Worked out.
> >
> > The sticking point was the "right of return." That is the
> > Palestinians who's families use to live in Israel had the right to
> > return to Israel. IIRC, that would make Israel a majority Palestinian
> > state. (If not now, very soon.) The Jewish residents would no longer
> > be able to run Israel. Given the fact that hatred of Israel has been
> > taught for years, and that the Palestinians have had the destruction
> > of Israel as part of their charter up until approximately 10 years
> > ago, do you really think that it was immoral of Israel to refuse this?
>
> The fact is, why have the other Arab states left their "fellow arabs"
> in the camps, for DECADES. They're not too keen on the palestian
> arabs, when it comes down to it....
>
> And yes, Israel is a Jewish state. Yes, just over a million arabs live
> in Israel, and they're good citizens - many volunteered to take over
> critcal jobs to free up soliders for the front lines during the 6 Day
> War and the You Kippur war..something about Israel being a
> deomocracy and the arab countries not...
>
> Does that mean, if a Palestian state is created, that we should
> accept the Palestians who origionally lived in Israel back? I stress,
> they would have their OWN state. Why should they have the right
> to live in Israel in that case?
>
> > Let me suggest that if that were part of the agreement, it would
> > basically be a negociated surrender. I would fully expect that a
> > written guarantee that any Israeli could become an American citizen at
> > will would also had been required. I know Great Britain is sort of an
> > exception, but most Jewish people I know only feel safe in Israel or
> > the US. (Andy can offer a different perspective on this.)
>
> Well, the USA tends to grant a VERY small number of VISA's to
> Jews, especially students. Thus, a lot of younger (early 20's)
> Jewish people come to England to study.
>
> > As far as occupying land, it should end. But, it is not unreasonable
> > to end it as part of a comprehensive peace settlement. Let me recall
> > history here.
>
> I agree, we should pull back from settlements in Palestian majority
> areas.
>
I'd like to point out to other list members we have a person who has stated
a willingness to die for Israel state that they need to pull back.
> > It was attacked again in 1968. This time it refused to give the lands
> > back. In their defense, the original borders were hard to secure.
>
> Try imposible...look, Israel is TINY. From it's northern borders,
> fighter jets can be over Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in under half an hour!
>
Well, it wasn't impossible...they somehow found a way to do it for about 20
years. :-) But, they would have lost everything in '73 with the origional
borders. So, I'll stick by very very difficult...and cannot be done over and
over.
> In the 6 day war, Isreal struck first, a few days before the planned
> arab offensiuve, and captureed ELEVEN times their land area! The
> Sinai was returned to Egypt, but not the gaza strip... (it's not prize
> land by ANY means..Egypt didn't really WANT it back..)
>
My memory was that the first warlike act was blocking shipping out of
Israel.
Dan M.
