> > Look, I choose to discount the Zionist claim to some sort of
> > incontrivertable, inalienable deed to a patch of dirt in Eurasia as so
>
> much
>
> > myth and absurdly ancient history.
>
> Right, when something is inconvenient, simply posit that it doesn't exist
> or isn't important. Every year for about 1900 years, it was "Next year in
> Jerusalem.  I am shocked that someone with your training dismisses
> something that is so important to defining a people.  Especially, after
> they had a significant fraction of their worldwide number wiped out.

I am not positing that the historically based myth of a Jewish homeland in 
Palestine is unimportant to Jews.  However, you have to be Jewish to believe 
or care about that myth.

Americans had a myth of European civilization and superiority.  In technical 
terms they were right.  Did that justify genocide on Indians, enslavement and 
apartheid policies against Africans and their descendants, brutal 
anti-insurgency campaigns in the Philipenes, and racist immigration policies?

Emicly the Zionist myth is reality for Zionist Jews and Christians.  Etically 
it is a myth pressed into rhetorical propagandistic service to the Zionist 
program.


>  BTW, every bit of information that I received, including information from
> Palistinian sources indicated that the Jewish population in the territories
> that were granted to them by the UN in 1948 was larger than the Arab
> population in that particular area.

That is true.  The Zionist program dates to roughly 1880.  Prior to 1880 the 
sum of the indigenous Jewish and population of Jewish pilgrims who took up 
residence in Ottoman Palestine is estimated to be around 10% of a total 
population that was a fraction of what it is today.  Most of these resided in 
Jerusalem.  (This is from memory.  I could be wrong.)

After 1880, the Jewish population of Europe became more politicized and the 
dislocation and stress of modernization made Judeophobia much more 
pronounced, particularly in Central and Eastern Europe.  Jews emigrated to 
Switzerland, Western Europe, Australia, North and South America, and 
Palestine.  During the British Mandate Jewish immigration to Zionist colonies 
increased dramatically, resulting in constant pressure by the Palestinians to 
restrict Jewish immigration.  By 1948 Jews were in the majority in the areas 
designated in the UN plan.

> > The Zionists had and have a program that required colonizing territory at
>
> the
>
> > expense of a relatively strong and sophisticated indigenous Arab people.
> > These sorts of colonial projects have been very successful when the
> > colonizers resorted to genocide, ethnic cleansing, ethnocide by forced
> > assimilation, or ethnic apartheid.


> Can you give another example of colonialists where the people have defined
> themselves by the territory that they were colonializing for even 100 years
> prior to settlement?  

I fail to see *why* this is eticly relevant except as a rhetorical tool. 


However, no I know of no *perfect* parallels.  However, history is not 
physics.  Initial conditions are never the same, and even if they were events 
would still not play out identically in every detail.  

There would be parallels in the reconquest of Iberia, Sardinia or Sicily.  In 
effect the Greeks and Slavs had to do the same through processes of ethnic 
(and religious) cleansing during their wars of national liberation from the 
Ottoman and Austo-Hungarian empires.  However, this would have been limited 
to cleaning minority pockets rather than actually colonizing from scratch as 
in the case of the Zionist colonization of Palestine.  However, the Crusaders 
did have an ancient mandate to colonize the Levant.  (This is an 
uncomfortably close parallel).   

Even the early Muslim conquest of Mecca is somewhat parallel to the Zionist 
program.  There are also parallels to the American doctrine of manifest 
destiny and the Monroe-Roosevelt doctrines of Hemispheric hegemony.

I hardly see the Zionist program as a terribly unique or particularly 
righteous historical phenomenon.

I do, however, largely support the Zionist project.  However, this is out of 
alliance, interest, and Real Politik and reason, not out of irrational 
patriotism or religious investment in myth or superstition. 

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