At 12:49 AM 4/5/02 +0200 J. van Baardwijk wrote:
>Well, jeez, I wonder why someone would be reluctant to discuss the topic of
>abortion, less than two weeks after going through such a traumatic
>procedure... :-(
But Jeroen, you did not abort Phaedra. You birthed her, you held her in
your arms, and you buried her. You affirmed her life, her human life.
What you did Jeroen was the most impressively pro-life thing I have ever
seen anyone do.
>(I have discussed the topic before, so your statement about me "not wanting
>to talk about certain topics due to personal experiences" is at best an
>exaggeration and at worst totally false.)
I'm sorry, its not that you did not want to discuss the topic, you were
merely "reluctant." I stand corrected.
I think.
>The fact that you consider abortion to be only "distantly related" to what
>we had to go through, as well as the fact that you deemed it necessary to
>start discussing it right after we lived through that nightmare, shows that
>sensititivy is an totally alien concept to you. This was once again proven
>by you deciding to bail out of a conversation and using your parting
>message to remind us of it again. What we had to go through is totally
>unrelated to Israel; there was therefore no valid reason to bring it up, so
>the only conclusion can be that it was brought up in a deliberate attempt
>to hurt people's feelings.
Jeroen, I discuss abortion all the time. In fact, I think about it almost
every day. How could I not, when I truly and honestly believe that the
country that I love is putting innocent children to death every day?
As such, when I mentioned the topic after I thought an appropriate amount
of time had passed, it was completely unconnected to any event in your
life. In fact, I didn't think that the topic would be a particular issue
for you or Sonja, as after all, you didn't have an abortion, you had a
birth - a birth of a beautiful baby daughter.
I am sorry that I was mistaken, and misjudged the personal reaction that
you and Sonja had to the topic.
When I brought the subject up again, however, it was because you were being
incredibly hypocritical. You completely dismissed the idea that the
Holocaust, Nazism, or WWII might be a particularly distressing subject for
Jews - even though you had previously been completely distressed by a topic
of discussion on Brin-L once before You can't argue that I was completely
insensitive to bring up the topic, Jeroen, but then say that you were never
distressed by the topic.
When I mentioned it only in passing, as both Erik and Jim have noted (two
people whom I have disagreed with - sometimes vehemntly in the past), it
was out of politeness, Jeroen, not rudeness. I was trying to avoid being
blunt about the topic, since I had already once learned my lesson of
misjudging your sensitivity to the topic.
>No, I am not going to unilaterally decide to unsubscribe you; if you decide
>not to unsubscribe, however, removing you (either temporarily or
>permanently) might very well become a topic of discussion in the very near
>future. The only way to avoid it (other than by leaving) is by thoroughly
>cleaning up your act, which means: no more false accusations, no more
>accusations while refusing to provide proof, no more personal attacks, no
>more flame wars. IOW, start behaving like a mature and civilised adult.
Well, Jeroen, you have a problem. I stand by every statement that I have
made on this subject. I probably won't be repeating them currently, as
this thread seems to have run its course, but I stand by them nevertheless.
Personally, I've noticed that you never seem to much be in the apology
business, nor have you always scrupulously avoided making offensive
comments. But you do what you feel you have to do.
>>So, as nicely as I can put this... I would have expected that the same
>>kindness you expected me to show you, you would show towards a people
>>who were nearly the victims of genocide.
>
>Showing kindness to people who were nearly the victims of genocide is one
>thing. Excusing Israel's aggression because they were once victims of
>attempted genocide is something else, and something I will not have any
>part in. Having been the victim of a horrible crime is no excuse for
>committing crimes yourself.
As usual Jeroen, this is completely bogus.
No one is asking you to excuse Israel's aggression. Heck, even the US has
voted for the last two UN Resolutions calling on Israel to withdraw.
Rather, I'd just ask that you show a little kindness towards Jews who might
find the topics of the Holocaust, Nazism, and WWII a little bit sensitive.
I'd also ask that you recognize that comparing Jews (ie those Jews who
believe that Israel should exist in some form as a Jewish homeland) in ANY
WAY to those who attempted genocide against them, is of course, incredibly
offensive to those Jews.
JDG
__________________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ #3527685
"We fight against poverty because faith requires it and
conscience demands it." - George W. Bush 3/22/02
