> I did. I think that was ridiculous. If you think > Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher of all time, you're > simply wrong. There is no serious argument for this. > If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a > per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you > have a case and we can talk about it. Arguing that he > was better than Seaver or Clemens is foolish. He > didn't pitch for long enough. > He did not have their longevity. He did not have the benefit of modern techniques and attitudes for protecting a pitcher's arm > > Note that Pedro is clearly not the best pitcher ever > either. The most dominant on a per-game basis? > Probably yes. But not the best ever. Too many > injuries, too short a career. > > But as for all your post season arm waving, Bob. Tell > me - how many pitches per game did Koufax throw? In a > very tough game, probably 120. Are you sure about this? Koufax threw lots of complete games. In 61 he had a 200 pitch game. He pitched more than 9 innings on many occaisons. Even granting that he may have made fewer pitches per inning (but that would mean he simply got batters out more quickly - and this is somehow a bad thing?). He pitched over 250 innings in 61 and 184 in 62 (the year he almost lost a finger to gangrene after injury an artery in his left hand while batting early in the year). After that he pitched over 300 innings per year from 63-66. Now maybe Pedro has more pitches per batter but he still only throw about 200 innings per year. So clearly Koufax threw more pitches. So if Pedro were throwing > off a 20" mound, in Dodger Stadium, with a strike zone > twice the size of todays, against batters who couldn't > hit the ball out of the park if you let them use golf > balls - what do you think he would do? Who can tell. You have to put him back in that era. He won't have the same arsenal of pitches as he does now. He won't have the benefit of modern atttitudes towards pitches.
You assume that ther relative futility of hitters in that era was a reflection of both pitchers advantage and lower skill level. Let me offer another reason. It wasn't that the pitchers were better. It was that all of the pitchers were good. After all there were only 16 teams and each team had a 4 man rototation. So hitters had to bat against only 64 pitchers. There were no patsies on the mound. No guys who could get no one out. Now there are 30 teams and each team has a 5 man rotation. That means there are 150 pitchers in rotations. The dilution of pitching talent is an important cause of the improved hitting in the current era. Great pitchers always have the advantage. That is why pitching trumps hitting in the World Series. Koufax and Pedro would have very similar stats if they were contemporaries. The difference would have been who won the important games. Koufax won them, Pedro and Maddux and until recently Clemens have not. > Your argument, Bob, boils down to Koufax was better > because those old time players played the exact same > game players do today. That pitching in Dodger > Stadium off a 20" mound and pitching in Fenway Park > off a 10" mound are identical. That pitching to > little guys who don't lift weights and think a double > is a career highlight is the same as pitching to Mark > McGwire and Barry Bonds. Teams hit 200 HRs per season > routinely nowadays. How many teams Koufax pitched to > could do that? > There is no doubt that the game has changed and that pitchers face different challenges. Current hitters can be fooled on pitches and still muscle them out of the park. But this only goes so far. A strike out is still a strike out whether the hitter is Barry Bonds or Bobby Richardson. > Frankly, if this argument were about anyone except > Koufax, _you_ wouldn't take you seriously. > Particularly since by _your_ standards, Gibson was > better than Koufax, so where's your argument? Uh - Gibson admitted (grudgingly) that Koufax was the best pitcher ever from 62-66. So who am I (or you) to disagree. > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
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