At 06:58 PM 3/28/2004 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote:
>Only you seem to see it as an insult, and I think that is because you
>really really want to.
Then again, I'm the only devout Catholic, AFAIK, here.....
>> The Vatican issued last year a "doctrinal note" warning Catholic
>lawmakers
>> that they have a "grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that
>attacks
>> human life.
>> For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such
>laws
>> or to vote for them."
>>
>> So, Mr. Seeberger do you really mean to imply that it is *wrong* for
>the
>> Catholic Church to make such a statement? Please keep in mind
>that this
>> doctrinal note was issued to the universal Church, and was not even
>issued
>> in the same year as the United States' election.
>
>If the POTUS were President only over Catholics, such a doctrine would
>be A-OK. But since the POTUS is President over just about every kind
>of person that exists on earth, it is a most definate NO.
>
>The Vatican has no business whatsoever trying to influence secular
>governance.
That is interesting. So, do you believe that the Vatican had no business
whatsoever in trying to influence the Holocaust? The National Socialists
clearly thought that this was a matter of secular governance.
Moreover, the question you have kept on dodging - do you really believe
that the Vatican has no business whatsoever in evaluating the positions
taken in his name? For example, if John Kerry had said that "my
personal Catholicism sees nothing wrong with periodic adultery," would the
Vatican have any right to disavow these opinions as inconsistent with
Catholicism? What if Kerry had said that "my personal Catholicism sees
nothing wrong with the poorest people occasionally stealing from the
largest corporations, and the law should recognize the rights of the poor
to occasionally steal from the excessively rich" - would the Vatican have
any right to disavow these opinions as inconsistent with Catholicism?
>> Or do you wish to admit that you weren't really making such a fine
>> distinction after all?
>
>Who tells the Bishops what to say John? I can tell you it isn't George
>Bush, or John Kerry, or even Jim Carrey.
>No, those orders come straight from the Vatican, and the Vatican needs
>to stay out of America's business.
Again, the idea that the Catholic Bishops march in lock-step with the
Vatican, which is demonstrably untrue, is one of the mainstays of
anti-Catholic bigotry. Indeed, your allegation is particularly ridiculous
since your *own* article highlighted a number of differences of opinions
among the bishops on this subject. This certainly could not be possible
if they were all being, quote, "told what to say", by the Vatican. More
importantly, you said a moment ago that you wanted to distinguish between
the Vatican and the American Catholic Church. You now say that the
American Catholic Church gets its marching orders from the Vatican. Which
is it?
>> >Your penchant for jumping to weird and extreme conclusions is
>getting
>> >the better of you.
>> >I posted "news" that the Vatican and individuals *controlled* by
>the
>> >Vatican are involving themselves in our election.
>>
>> Mr. Seeberger, please do not try and change the subject. You
>posted that
>> [the Catholic Church is an] "Axis of Authoritarianism." I did
>not
>> object to your posting of the article. I objected to your
>extremely
>> offensive remarks after the article.
>
>John, are you trying to claim that the Catholic Church, from top to
>bottom, is not authoritarian?
>Don't be ridiculous.
For the third time, Mr. Seeberger, I am objecting to your comparison of the
Catholic Church with Nazi Germany, Al Qaeda, and Baathist Iraq - and the
implication that the Catholic Church is the enemy of the United States. I
am also objecting to your implication that somehow
We could end this conversation right now if you would simply apologize for
this sickening comparison, and disavow any belief on your part that the
Catholic Church is trying to subvert the republican form of governance of
the United States in favor of control by the Vatican.
JDG
_______________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world,
it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush 1/29/03
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