----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Fascist Censorship Spreads: Vichy Style
> > Reports had filtered out earlier, IIRC, though I don't think they'd > been given much credence. There is documented skepticism about the "whining of the Jews" concerning them being targeted by the Nazis. > > Further, to zeroth order, it was Stalin's USSR that defeated the Nazis. > > In Russia, on land, sure. But it was US and UK efforts that won the air > and sea battles. The air campaign helped some, but Nazis were still able to increase production until the very end of the war. > > Its fairly well established > > Among the brass, certainly -- I was referring to the people in the > trenches and the civilians left behind. Among those folks too. That is fairly well established, as Gautam has shown here. > > That sounds like arguing what happened must have been inevitable. > > I think it was inevitable, yes. But, if the US didn't exist as a powerful unified country, then things would have been much different. That existance is dependant on the North winning the Civil War. If Lincoln was not a singular talent; the North would probably not have won. The opening to Lincoln's Gettysburg address was not hyperbola, it was a true statement: "Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war. . .testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated. . . can long endure." > After WWII, you mean? No -- presumably the USSR would have been > carrying on a long war of attrition with the Nazis, but there were > really two major powers at work on the side of belligerence. I think > the major players would have eventually been whomever won the Nazi/USSR > standoff, and Japan/Asia. (The USSR could very well have won the > European conflict, I think.) And none of them were > > > > But, that is a very suspect arguement. Very unethical systems have > > suceeded for centuries. > > That's true but it doesn't make my way of judging which systems are > ethically preferable "suspect". In the absence of competition, a given > social system might very well persist for centuries, whether it's > relatively more or less ethical. But, what about more ethical systems being destroyed by less ethical systems? At the present time, the US is the lone superpower, so it appears that our system is inevitably the best. 25 years ago, many bright people thought the the triumph of Communism was an inevitable result of the historical dielectic in action. > > OK, does free will exist. You know there is no experimental evidence > > for > > it. > > As I said, I really don't know whether free will exists or not. I > believe it does, but if it doesn't then I have no choice but to believe > it does -- and since I believe it does, that means I believe > responsibility exists as well. OK, why isn't this irrational? What makes a belief rational or irrational? > But the second conclusion is based on something that can't actually be > proved. Classical physics would seem to imply that there is no free > will; but QM seems to let it sneak in after all. The way it does it has very interesting consequences...thus my question about the reality of the electron. > It's one of those things that's fun to discuss over a pint of Guinness. Or rigorously in a foundation of physics or philosophy of QM seminar. I've been dabbling in this area for ~30 years....and took those seminar classes in grad schol ~25 years ago. > Therefore if someone I know does something baffling, strange or > extraordinary, I'm more likely to be forgiving because I know that I > don't always know myself, and it would be unfair, to say the least, of > me to expect others to be perfect. But, we don't expect forest fires to be perfect either. What is the difference? > Does that make sense and/or answer your question? Yes/ no. :-) Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
