Rich wrote:

> Quite how we can convince people in the regions where the failure
> of  the Islamic states is most total that the things they ought to
> be emulating from the glorious past of Islamic are openness to
> trade, toleration, meritocracy, egality, respect and encouragement
> for science and scholarship and so forth, I just don't know. I
> think the admission of Turkey - former heartland of Islam's last
> great empire - into the European Union will be an important step.
> Engaging with the educated, partially Westernised elites of Iran
> might be another. But the near total failure of the heartlands of
> Islam to provide anything like a viable model for the organisation
> of modern industrial societies is an immense and complex problem to
> solve, and certainly not amenable to the sorts of quick and easy
> fixes that the more primitivist branches of Islam are desperate to
> try.

Excellent anaysis, Rich, thanks for that.  Let's hope Dan is wrong
about Turkey.

Doug


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