Apologies Britdisc.......Feel free to ignore! I just have to get this off my chest because I am basically being falsely accused of rule technicality picking by Dave, and don't feel happy just letting that go I'm afraid. I was merely forwarding a message from Scott. FYI, I think it's obvious in the rules as well as clearly the spirit of the rules that it should've been a turnover as Rodders decided. And as Waggle said at the time, Rodders went neither up nor down in my estimations as a result of the incident - not talking to Beavan about the foul would've simply been cheating, and Rodders has always been a fair player from what I've seen from sidelines, footage, & playing with+against him.
Chuffed that I caught such a great example of athletic play + self-officating on camera for all to see! Felix 2008/5/13 Dave Grayson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Felix et al. > > No no no no no no no no no! > > Please stop reading the rules and trying to interpret them to the absolute > minutiae. > > Using Spirit of the game as your only rule its pretty simple. If you catch > the disc and drop it when you hit the ground then you dropped it. If you got > fouled and that made a difference to you dropping it then its a foul. No > amount of "ah but I was in when I caught it and dropped it when I was out > etc." is needed. There is no need for revising the rules, just play the > game folks. Technicalities are utter bullshit. Just play the f*cking game. > > And for what it's worth - that was the best call I've seen this season - > Rodders deserves all the applause he gets, and he deserved his reward of > inspiring his team to a great comeback. In this case he truly is Mr. > Wright... > > > > > > > > > 2008/5/13 Felix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > (Forwarded message on behalf of Scott from Vision who can't post directly) > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > I know I'm going to regret getting involved in this, but ah well... > > > > At 0:58, Rodders is out of bounds and the disc first contacts the > > ground. He's already established a point of contact within bounds, > > during the layout, and has subsequently rolled out. > > > > At 0:59, we can see the disc has fallen from his grip, whilst he's > > upside down (impressive btw), although now, no part of his body is in > > bounds. > > > > As we know, ultimate takes rules from many different sports. The fact > > that we must get a point of contact in bounds after catching the disc > > is taken from NCAA rules college American football (NFL demanding that > > two feet be in bounds, rather than the NCAA's one). By their rules, a > > player, once having established that in-bounds catch as a catch, by > > having that point of contact, may then drop the ball. Granted, they > > drop it/hand it to a ref to initiate a new play. > > > > However, our rules really aren't clear on this. *Logically*, because > > he established a contact point before he was out-of-bounds, and was in > > control before moving out-of-bounds, before being "ground-stripped" > > (Which I too thought was a rule in the US!) after leaving the field of > > play, the catch should stand. Had he had to make a further pass, you > > could argue that the drop is a change of possession. But as it was in > > the endzone (I assume by everyone shouting that it was a score!), no > > further pass is needed, so surely an out-of-bounds drop, after having > > established said in-bounds contact, is irrelevant? It's already a > > score. The second that contact is made, and he has not dropped it, > > it's a score, surely? That's why we can spike it/throw it etc in > > celebration, immediately after catching it in-bounds. He drops it > > out-of-bounds, after the catch has already been deemed valid, by our > > own rules! > > > > Had he dropped it in bounds, it should have been a turnover. But the > > rules are a bit ...meh...about it all. I think he did the right thing, > > because if there's any doubt, you should always give it up, but > > clearer definitions are needed. > > > > Not really after an argument. Just pointing out that the rules are > > unclear on the matter and this might want to be addressed next time > > they're up for review. > > > > Of course I might just not be understanding where the pitch lies! Kind > > of hard to tell with only one line for perspective! :) > > > > --------------- > > > > With regards to pitch water, we (Vision) had to get our own all > > weekend. No pitch that we were on, at any time during the weekend, had > > tournament-supplied water. We saw the truck drive past, often empty, > > but it never gave us water. Almost every team we played complained > > about this, too. > > > > Of course the weather didn't help, but it's something you've got to > > expect. Rain or shine, we still need water. The volume isn't the > > issue. It's whether it's there or not that is. Every 90minutes, each > > pitch should have been replenished. The fact that I didn't even SEE a > > tournament water-bottle, indicates that there were too few, or people > > had taken them with them. > > > > As has been mentioned, back-to-back games prohibit filling up bottles > > between games (and unlike the previous poster, I'm not a fan of > > back-to-back, when there's time for one-on-one-off, but that's an > > argument for another time!). There's only so much a player can do to > > keep hydrated. I think taking a large bottle (unsure of the metric > > sizes to be honest, but the ones that are about 12 inches tall each) > > each should be enough. In these conditions, that lasts you (usually) > > 60-90 minutes. Sometimes it runs out, and you have to steal teammates > > water. But there should always be sideline water. For £180, we ought > > to get water almost on demand, especially when we're unable to fetch > > it ourselves! > > > > That's my two-penneth worth. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Scott > > Vision Ultimate #87 > > > > (BD still doesn't allow me to post messages, so hopefully this will be > > forwarded accordingly!) > > > > > > 2008/5/13 IndoorsDOC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > > > Just in case anyone's confused, here's why rodders wanted to check up on > > > it - if it had been a foul, it WOULD have been a goal. You don't have > to > > > directly knock the disc out of a guy's hands for it to be a strip; any > > > foul that results in him letting go of the disc is enough, so if you > > > trip or unbalance the guy after the catch, it could be a strip. > > > > > > WFDF Rules: > > > 16.5.4. A defensive foul that causes the receiver or thrower to drop > > > the disc after they have gained possession is a "Strip" foul. > > > 16.5.4.1. If such a foul occurs and the reception would have > > > otherwise been a goal, and the foul is uncontested, a goal is > > > awarded. > > > > > > B > > > > > > > > > > > > Justin Parkhurst wrote: > > > > Indeed, well spirited by Rodders in the COTD we saw. I don't fault > the > > > > sideline though, they are allowed to be involved in the game - > indeed, one > > > > of the great things about big games are the spectators - but Rodders > knew > > > > what happened, and he wasn't about to pretend it didn't simply > because > > > > others didn't see it happen (indeed, anyone who would have tried to > 'get > > > > away with it' really is in the wrong sport, in my opinion.) > > > > > > > > For some reason, several people on the sidelines that day were saying > 'in > > > > the US that would have been a goal' > > > > > > > > This does not appear to be true. Both UPA rules and WFDF rules seem > to say > > > > this is a turn over. Relevant rules from both are posted below: > > > > > > > > This is from WFDF > > > > > (http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/2007_wfdf_ultimate_rules.htm) see > > > > 13.2 > > > > 13. Receivers and Positioning > > > > > > > > 13.1. A player "catches" the disc by demonstrating sustained > control of a > > > > non-spinning disc. > > > > > > > > > > > > 13.2. If the player loses control of the disc due to subsequent > contact > > > > with the ground or a teammate or a legitimately positioned opposition > > > > player, the catch is deemed to have not occurred. > > > > > > > > > > > > UPA rules (section II, sub-section O, as well as Section XI) : > > > > http://www.upa.org/ultimate/rules/11th#XV > > > > > > > > II Definitions: > > > > .. > > > > O. Possession of the disc: Sustained contact with, and control of, a > > > > non-spinning disc. > > > > 1.. Catching a pass is equivalent to establishing possession of > that pass. > > > > 2.. Loss of possession due to ground contact related to a catch > negates > > > > that player's possession up to that point. > > > > .. > > > > XI. Scoring > > > > 1.. A goal is scored when an in-bounds player catches any legal > pass in > > > > the end zone of attack, and retains possession of the disc throughout > all > > > > ground contact related to the catch. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Justin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dan Knapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:55 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [BD] COTD: Fire v Chevron - Rodders' layout grab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And the clip also nicely highlights why uninvolved players and the > > > >> sideline hecklers should stay out of it and not get involved. You > can here > > > >> people calling out and moaning about the speed of the game. > > > >> > > > >> Rodders made an awesome call, and had to ignore a lot of his peers > to do > > > >> so. Lesson there? He is a teacher I guess... > > > >> _________________________________________________________________ > > > >> Win Indiana Jones prizes with Live Search > > > >> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000002ukm/direct/01/ > > > >> __________________________________________________ > > > >> BritDisc mailing list > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > > > >> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > BritDisc mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > > > > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > BritDisc mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > > > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > BritDisc mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > > > __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
