How is freedom a pile of shit? How is it dogma? I am free. I am free to write these words. I am free to worship as I wish. I am free not to worship and deny God if I wish. I am free to express any political opinion I wish. I am free to associate with whomever I wish. I am free to work where I wish. I am free to own any property I can afford. I am free to sell my services or goods I might produce to the highest bidder. I have an abundance of social, civic and economic freedom. How is that shit?
Yes, there are certain things I'm not free to do, as has been discussed before. I am not free to murder, for example. I am not free to steal. But I'm freedom isn't hampered by these laws. It is enhanced and enriched by these laws. I live in a safer more just society because of these laws. The ability to do these things is not freedom, it is anarchy. I am also free to be a consumer. What is wrong with that? Why is consumerism bad? If I work hard, shouldn't I be free to spend my money as I wish? I'm not a sheep. Few Americans are. But we enjoy our toys. What's wrong with that? And if Ray Kroc can die a billionaire by making hamburgers and selling them all over the world, what's wrong with that? That's capitalism. Is capitalism perfect? No. But it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives. Is capitalism open to abuses? Sure it is. But what economic system isn't? There certainly hasn't been any economic equality in any communist country -- ever. And there's also been no entrepreneurial spirit in these countries either, so most of the populace is sentenced to poverty. BTW: We have plenty of choices beyond "Wal-Mart, Nike, Microsoft, StarBucks." I own products from many other companies (anybody ever heard of Macromedia or Allaire?), too numerous to list them all, and many were bought at small mom-and-pop shops, run by hard working people who are making comfortable livings made possible by a free economy. My town is filled with such businesses. My parents retired as millionaires by starting and growing such a business. The American Dream is still very much alive and kicking. If you want to vote for our president, become a U.S. citizen? Australia would make a great 51st state. As for comparative economics, when I went to England, everything cost me twice as much as in the U.S. I mean, a coke that would cost me 75 cents here, cost nearly a buck 50 in the UK. If I wanted to live in London, rent, from the places I saw, would be twice as much. Should I whine about exploitation? Should Nike, etc. pay higher wages? Probably. But are they totally evil because they give jobs to disadvantaged people and allow them to earn wages they could not possibly otherwise earn? How do you think it's possible that Americans earn higher wages? It's largely the efforts of organized labor that brought up wages, improved working conditions and shortened hours. This is another example of capitalism working perfectly. Companies can't succeed without willing labor. When workers unite, they can shift the balance of power in their favor. If workers want more money, they should organize. If they face government opposition, they should overthrow their government. All governments exist the consent of the governed. Governments are oppressive to the extent their citizens tolerate it. As for American foreign policy, this is an area where I have been most critical of our government. You brought up Vietnam. Valid points. The other night I happened to catch Al Haig and Cap Whineburger (sp?) on Larry King. I was shocked to hear both of them viciously attack America's Vietnam policy (and presumably, since Haig was part of the Nixon White House, he was an architect of that policy). I think Harry Kissenger should be tried as a war criminal for what he did in Chili during the Nixon administration. We've made a lot of mistakes in this area. We've supported dictators we should not have supported and been too blinded by anti-communism to recognize potential friends (you could list Castro here as well). Mistakes I hope we'll learn from. But none of that makes us a bad country. We have done more to extend democracy and freedom than any other country. As others have pointed out, we are extremely charitable in many parts of the world, both as official government policy and as private organizations. At the end or WWII we rebuilt both Germany and Japan. We're not perfect. But that doesn't mean we're not great. More often than not, we listen to our better angels and do the right thing. H. -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:13 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: The Anti Terrorism Act.. I respect your position Raymond. I'm not attacking your beliefs directly. Just trying to promote discussion and open-minded thought to which we are both inclined. I just believe that the whole 'freedom' thing is dogma and a pile of shit. Ok so you can burn your flag. The freedom of America is always bolstered BY comparing the American 'way of life' against other countries which is an almost always an unfair comparison given cultural differences. I believe that you'll find a situation over the next 20 years where the very definition of freedom will no longer have any meaning. How 'free' is someone who is defined by their consumer behaviour. That they existence (which is already the case now) is defined by their shopping libidos. They are bombarded with corporate advertising. They have only to choose between Wal-Mart, Nike, Microsoft, StarBucks. Wasn't the American dream the idea that you could work and if you were creative enough, you could make alot of money. How possible is that for the average American now that corporations completely run the show? If you want some stories of extreme corporate aggression, I've give you plenty. The mantra of America is not freedom. The mantra of American is OIL, disposable nappies and the big Mac. There is no 'freedom' in this lifestyle. Only the 'idea' of freedom exists and this is quickly being eroded. The media is a self policed propaganda machine easily comparable to the Nazis or the communists only MUCH more dangerous, because information is no longer information. Information IS entertainment and entertainment is the perfect vehicle for propaganda. Another MAJOR problem i have with the states is that America's so called freedoms are designed to protect American only (thus giving them great personal freedom and power than the other people of the world). Example. Only Americans are allowed to vote for the position often touted as the 'most powerful office in the world'. The other 90% of the world which is hugely effected by the American presidency don't have a say at all. Another problem is the ruthless corporate cannibalism of American mulit-nationals that exploit and destroy other nations and the environment through there practises. These mostly American companies do business outside of America so they can circumvent the 'protective' laws of freedom and justice so precious to America. In other word, if it ain't on our shore, then who gives a fuck. Like Nike says, a dollar a day is a GOOD wage for a woman in Indonesia making $150.00 shoes. Same with American politics. A lot of Americans I have spoken with seem to hold this opinion (which was even express by Colin Powell) that America is the police force and is always protecting 'freedom' around the global. This is another piece of total shit. America will only get involved in conflict directly if it has self interest. Never, as they would have their people (and the rest of the world believe) for the sake of liberating a country in the ideals of freedom. Americans ACTUALLY said to me. "next time Australia is threatened, don't be asking for our help..." Can you believe the arrogance! benjamin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Camden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: RE: The Anti Terrorism Act.. > > > > How can you be proud of America? What is there to be proud of? > > > > You're kidding, right? I'm proud of many things. I'm proud of our > freedoms, which, while not perfect, are _very_ strong, especially > compared to other countries. Shoot, I don't think even England has a > true 1st Amendment type protection (although, if I'm wrong, please > correct.) I'm proud that I have the right to tell off my elected leaders > any time I choose. I'm proud I live in a country where people can burn > the flag, the symbol of our nation, if they so choose, even though I > think it's horrible to do so. I'm proud that I have the right to travel > across my country at will. The right to worship as I see fit. > > I have complained about my country in the past, and I'll do so again. > Just like my job. I like the company I work for. I'm proud of my > company. Have I seen them do things I don't agree with? Dang right I > have, and I let people in charge know about it. It doesn't mean I'm > being less "loyal" or supportive. > > I could go on and on, but what's the point. The issue here is that, > well, it seems like your saying I should hate my country. That's silly. > Show me a country that has never made a mistake, or done anything wrong. > Then, show me a _person_ who has done that. By your logic, no one or no > country would measure up. > > I'll say it again. Patriotism is not wrong. It is certainly _not_ the > most important thing in the world. I care a lot about the condition of > the other countries in the world. Caring and supporting my country is > not impossible while at the same time caring about the world. I do not > belive my country is perfect. It's certainly no more or less perfect > than I am. > > -RC > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
