> But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with whom I'm interacting with >would be highly unethical.
Then what was all of that "Mike, you're nuts and really need some Prozac" talk....;-) I'm telling.... Michael Corrigan Programmer Endora Digital Solutions 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 Lombard, IL 60148 630-627-5055 ext.-136 630/627-5255 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Community Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM Subject: RE: From the OMFG files You do not understand then. I have not made any judgements or ascribed any blame regarding anyone on this list. I suggested that you look at these beliefs and see if they apply to you. If you have read that material, you would see where I am coming from, these beliefs are endemic, to some extent we all endorse one or more of these beliefs. I am not saying one way or another whether any of these beliefs specifically apply or not. For me to go further would be a violation of professional ethics. I can not and will not play psychologist here. I am not a licensed clinical psychologist. I can discuss my research, political opinions etc. But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with whom I'm interacting with would be highly unethical. larry -- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 fax: (703) 393-2659 Web: http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:20 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > Larry, > > I'll read all this at lunch but would like to point out one > thing that I > saw in my cursory scan > > "I'm quite willing to be that you endorse many of these irrational > beliefs." > > Now by saying that you are one giant hypocrite. Remember > when I accused > you of wearing blinders about Clinton. You exploded with, You don't > know me...you can't stereotype me...yada yada yada. Well that > statement > you made seems to me you did just the same thing to me. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:12 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > Kevin, > > First off to the CF-Community - this is a large note, really > large. Its > partially taken from my master's thesis and some material scraped off > the > web. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:08 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > Larry, > > > > I suffer from bi-polar depression and no matter how depressed I get, > > which isn't very often as I have medication for it. But > even before I > > was diagnosed and took the medication I never felt the desire > > to embrace > > irrational beliefs. I just don't buy it, sorry. Just look > > at any court > > case where any type of mental disability or incapacity is > > involved. The > > defense has an expert on their side saying that it's a > problem and the > > prosecution has an expert saying that it's not. When it > > comes to matter > > of the mind, which "expert" do you believe? In this case, with my > > personal experience, I don't buy the depression bit. > > > > Kevin > > > > I look at the person's publications etc. In other words his > professional > reputation. I'd rather trust a Aaron Beck of SUNY rather than someone > with a > terminal masters from a no-name bible college. > > Moreover some definitions are needed, I think that there is a > disconnect > between what you call irrational beliefs and what I use for > the term. To > me > its a fairly operationally defined type of cognition. - btw the > following > is taken from > http://www.scs.unt.edu/classes/RHAB/5300/RationalEmotiveBehavi > orTherapy. > html > > > -- > To start, our thinking, emoting and acting all interact together. > Nothing is > experienced in isolation. Emotion is said to have no single cause or > result > but can result from the senses, the stimulation of the nervous system, > thinking about something that has importance or calling up > thoughts of a > previous emotional experience. > > If you want to control the emotions, there are four major > ways to do so. > The > first is by electric shock or with drugs. The second way to change > behavior > is to utilize another system such as physical movement or variation in > breathing. Emotional states and prejudices can be seen as motives to > change. > The last way is to use your thinking and exert control with your > thoughts. > > The roots of maladjustment are Irrational Beliefs (iBs). These > irrational > beliefs significantly contribute to or "cause" emotional and > behavioral > disturbances. Dysfunctional, negative, or other > self-defeating ideas can > cause a person to be neurotic and disturbed. Irrational Beliefs (iBs) > are > beliefs that are unrealistic, illogical, absolutist and held > to tightly > even > when they can't be proven. In contrast, an adjusted person's > thinking is > logical and realistic most of the time. People who are less > neurotic and > self-defeating are also those who are flexible and not > dogmatic in their > thinking. Ellis (1994) hypothesized that emotionally disturbed people > commonly have a number of iBs and practically all of them arise from > their > taking a sensible preference or desire and raising it to a grandiose, > absolutist must or demand. Within the REBT framework, people who hold > the > irrational demand that they absolutely must perform well at certain > tasks > and relationships often use poor thinking methods to confirm these > ideas. > People truly diagnosed as disturbed or maladjusted display similar > ideas. > > When an undesirable or unfortunate activating event or adversity (A) > occurs, > two routes can be followed. A person experiencing the event can choose > to > respond and develop a rational belief (rB) which is a belief that is > self-helping or socially acceptable to the community as a > whole. Others > may > respond to the activating event with (iBs). In both cases, > there will be > consequences (Cs). A pers! on with (iBs) may develop unhealthy > consequences > (Cs) such as depression. The opposite is true for the person who > responds > with (rBs) they may feel sorrow or regret but the (Cs) that result are > healthier for the person. > > The method of enhancing adjustment is to teach a person to dispute his > iBs > and develop an effective new philosophy. Even when the > activating event > is a > fatal illness, REBT techniques can be employed. It is unlikely that an > individual will be able to think rationally all the time. Even as > children > we are open to suggestion and we may easily take on destructive ideas > from > our parents or from our culture. Additionally, we have a strong innate > tendency to take any strong desire and make it something necessary to > have. > We also have innate and acquired self-defeating tendencies: > we take our > goals and desires and transform them into demands and commands. This > tendency is both biological and socially learned. In the early days of > humanity, this may have been a life-preserving tool. Early > humans had to > ward off dangerous encounters. Though therapy can't change > all the ideas > we > are exposed to, it can help us think more effectively. > -- > Generally these beliefs include Black and white thinking (absolutism); > Filtering; Over-generalisation; Mind-reading; > Fortune-telling; Emotional > reasoning and Personalising. Here are some typical Irrational Beliefs > (your > milage may vary). > > -- > I need love and approval from those significant to me - and I > must avoid > disapproval from any source). > > To be worthwhile as a person I must achieve, succeed at whatever I do, > and > make no mistakes. Perfectionism > > People should always do the right thing. When they behave obnoxiously, > unfairly or selfishly, they must be blamed and punished. > > Things must be the way I want them to be, oth-erwise life will be > intolerable. > > My unhappiness is caused by things that are out-side my control - so > there > is little I can do to feel any better. > > I must worry about things that could be danger-ous, unpleasant or > frightening - otherwise they might happen. > > I can be happier by avoiding life's difficulties, unpleasantness, and > responsibilities. > > Everyone needs to depend on someone stronger than themselves. > > Events in my past are the cause of my problems - and they continue to > influence my feelings and behaviours now. > > I should become upset when other people have problems, and > feel unhappy > when > they're sad. > > I shouldn't have to feel discomfort and pain - I can't stand them and > must > avoid them at all costs. > > Every problem should have an ideal solution - and it's > intolerable when > one > can't be found. > -- > > Now given that, in the research I've conducted, we have used > standardized > tests that looked the degree of endorsement of irrational beliefs. We > found > significant relationships between the number and magnitude of the > irrational > beliefs and high levels of depression, anxiety, and generalized anger > among > others. Those people with high levels of depression, anxiety, > generalized > anger etc tended to endorse more of these irrational beliefs > that those > who > were not depressed, anxious etc. These relationships were very similar > for > university student samples, participants from community > colleges, office > workers, people working in industrial plants, hospitals and > residents of > senior care homes. These relationships held up across considerably > different > samples, which suggests to me that similar relationships > would be found > if > we were able to assess the entire population rather than these > independent > samples. > > In terms of a psychotherapy, REBT has been found to be very effective, > as > evidenced by literally hundreds of studies (see Lyons & Woods, 1990, > online > version at http://www.lyonsmorris.com/maret/RETstudy1.htm). It is also > been > found to be effective when combined with psychotropic medication for > bipolar > conditions as well. However I do not have my references here > at work so > I'll > have to get back to you on that one. > > Now given that very long winded explanation, I'm quite willing to be > that > you endorse many of these irrational beliefs. However it would be > unethical > of me to explore this further in public. Moreover I let my training in > this > area lapse years ago, so it would not be appropriate to go > any further. > What > I can say is look over those 12 self-statements and consider how often > you > say them, or something similar to yourself. Then look at how many you > endorsed, the results may be quite surprising. > > regards, > > larry > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > http://www.pacel.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > -- > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
