Palestine has existed for 2000 years. Israel has been non-existent for 2000 years...that makes it artificially created. I would say many in India question Pakistan's legitimacy. Jordan has been there for a while. What right do the British and the UN have to carve up states and displace people in the process in the first place?
What other countries put up a wall, preventing access to hospitals, places of work, olive groves, etc. Last wall like that I could think of was the Berlin was and a lot of people questioned that and made a pretty big deal of it coming down. What generations of Jewish olive growers? The ones there have been there for the past 2000 years are still there, while the Palestinians who were there have been kicked out. Maybe if they would lift the blockade that has created one of the greatest humanitarian disasters in the last century and into this century...maybe if they would stop shooting up civilian neighborhoods with gunships and fighter jets...maybe if they didn't come in and bulldoze the homes of people and bulldoze activists, maybe then that would take some of the umphf out of the sails of these terrorist groups. I think what both sides is doing is wrong, but Israel has control of the military, where as Palestine does not have that much control over the militant groups. Time for Israel to stop acting like a spoiled fucking brat and grow the fuck up. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:56 PM To: cf-community Subject: Re: Obama power drunk on the Middle East Do we have to do this again. I guess we do. Balfour declaration, league of nations, UN partition plan, Israel. There is a history here. Why does Israel have any less right to exist than any other country? Because it was supposed to include all of the land that is now Jordan? because 1/5 of it was set aside for the Jews and only half of that was given? Because it was invaded immediately after creation? because its enemies gave the famous three nos which kept war and hatred running for decades? Because to this day people keep the argument that it should not exist alive? Pakistan is an artificial state. Jordan is an artificial state. Palestine would be an artificial state as it never existed in the past. Saying artificial state and basically saying it has no right to exist is pure blindness to history and the world. We've been there all of the time that the Arabs have. Why is it only the Jews who's state is questioned? Why is it only the Jews who have to keep agreements when the other side breaks them on a regular basis? Why is it the Jews who are taken to court for a protective wall when other countries can do it with impunity? Those peaceful muslim brothers have been attacking the jews on a regular basis waaaay before Israel. Using it as an excuse ignores history. And generations of olive growers? What about the generations of Jewish olive growers? why are they ignored in this? There would be a Palestinian state if they wanted it but the first thing they did when israel was created was try to destroy it. > I never said that there weren't any Jews there. Just not an Israel. The > whole Diaspora thing was kicked off when the Romans booted them from the > region. That is the reason my family came to the US from Warsaw rather than > Israel. Let me ask you this Michael. If the UN came in and said to you > that we are giving the property that you own back to its original > owners...the North American Indians...would you give it up? Probably not. > Why should the Palestinians be any more cooperative? The new Israel is an > artificial state. Once that was created by taking away the lands of people > that lived there for 2000 years after the old Israel was destroyed and it's > people scattered to the four corners of the earth. Thos that did manage to > remain, lived peacefully with their Muslim brothers, that was until the new > state of Israel was forced on them and Palestinians were taken away from > olive groves that they and their ancestors farmed (not sure what you call an > olive grower :-D) for generations. > When Israel gave up Gaza they did so with the most extreme cost you could imagine. A cost verging on civil war with a rift that has not healed yet. It was given up in the spirit of "land for peace", which is what all of these peace agreements are built on. Why is Gaza blockaded? Because they keep shooting at Israel. The attacks keep on coming. Land was given for peace and it's being used for war. Has the fact of this been missed? Has the fact that Egypt is also keeping Gaza blockaded been missed? This is not cruelty for its own sake as you say but an attempt to stop terrorists from getting weapons. Terrorists who were given the land totally free of any Jews. Given greenhouses, given everything that was there and destroyed it all. Even your language (facist) betrays a thinking that just doesn't want to see anything beyond retoric. Israel is not a facist state and while extreme tactics are used to stop terrorist attacks, they are FAR less than those used in other places. FAR fewer Palestinians are killed than many of the other hotspots in the world. I'm not absolving some of these practices, but when someone keeps shooting a rocket at a town on a daily basis, they have to be stopped. That's Gaza's blockade. When someone is blowing up busses and pizza parlors and they have to be stopped, a fence is a very effective way to do it. But you accuse that of being a land grab. Despite Israel saying that it is a temporary thing until final status. Despite the fact that the land is disputed, not occupied or the like. But occupied sounds so much nicer, doesn't it. More retoric. You ignore all of the Israeli Arabs with citizenship, their own political parties, and members of government. Peace was offered to them and they took it inside of Israel. Peace was offered to Gaza and what's going on there? And as for what you would do, what about the other side of the coin. What if you woke up one day and has had a few nations coming to destroy you? What if you woke up and found a gun to your head? or a bomb? Looks to me like you're only identifying with one side and not even looking at the other. > While Israel did give up Gaza, they kept it in a state of siege. The land > around it was surrounded by the IDF. The sea was blockaded by the Navy. > The air controlled by the air force. Hardly the actions of a state that is > open to peace. Israel has become the warmongering Israelites of the Old > Testaments...hell bent on doing whatever they can to oppress and destroy the > Palestinian people. Why should you be surprised when the Palestinians have > had enough of Israel's fascist tactics and fight back? What is truly sad is > that instead of learning from their trials and tribulations at the hands of > the Nazi's, they learned from it. If the same thing happened here in the > US, you better damn well believe that I would be doing the same thing. Um, you're stuck in the 60's or something here. There has been no continual encroachment. No settlements have grown past their designated size in years. In fact, when people start settlements, israel closes them down - VERY FORCEFULLY. Even today the building freeze has the government violently forcing its own people from building anything from a pourch to a house. And again the retoric. The police is what is used in most cases. The use of 'gunships' (wonderfully loaded word) and f-15's are a rare event and always tied to something a lot larger than just getting a single person. Like rocket launches. Rocket launchers used to attack a civilian center. But that doesn't count does it, because it's only in Israel. And civilian areas? Hamas glorifies in hiding behind civilians. They brag about it. And during the Gaza war, israel went out of its way to warn people before bombing a Hamas location. Phone calls. Leaflets. It's all there if you bother reading. White phosphorus is only illegal to use as a direct fire weapon on civilian areas. The use in smoke screens, which Israel admited to, and as markers (ditto), it totally legal. If you're going to use the argument, follow it all the way through. And it's not Netanyahu that want's Jerusalem, it's all of us. It's our captial and has always been so, even when there was no israel. Yes, we're willing to compromise on it but that's not enough, is it. Netanyahu accepting the principle of a two state solution is not enough. Peace deals offered to Arafat and Abbas which were rejected without any counteroffer is not enough. You're continually saying Israel doesn't want peace but when it offers peace... israel has sacrificed for peace and still does. Not enough for you? What has to happen, the country disapear? If the Palestinians wanted a state they could sit down and negotiate like they agreed to do. But they're stalling because the longer they do, the longer Israel will be pressured to give more concessions - for nothing in return. So what do you say? Should Israel just drop everything, give up Jerusalem, open Gaza, and then what? What will result? Follow it through rather than beating Israel up. > Terrorism hasn't ended on Israel's side either. Their continued > encroachment on Palestinian lands has not stopped. If you want to stop a > terrorist leader, you send it a police force to arrest him...you don't send > in Apache Gunships and F-15's in to launch missiles and drop bombs in > civilians areas. You don't use illegal arms like White Phosphorus against > the people of Gaza. Netanyahu doesn't want peace...he wants Jerusalem, plain > and simple. He made that pretty clear. He made it pretty clear that he and > his fellow neo-fascists have no intention of complying with international > agreements. They have no intention of allowing a Palestinian state. > > > > Eric > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 4:29 PM > To: cf-community > Subject: Re: Obama power drunk on the Middle East > > > 1. Jews have been in Israel and Jerusalem specifically for all of > those years. We're not some new element that never existed there. > Passover starts next week and it ends with a single sentence. A > sentence said for generations by millions of Jews. Next your in > Jerusalem. NO other people on earth say this. No Muslim, no Christian, > no one. Our connection has never wavered. > 2. If Israel didn't have an interest in a peaceful solution, they > would have never given Gaza up to the Palestinians. No Jews at all in > Gaza. Even the Nazi's dreamed of that. Israel agave control over > Palestinian life to the PA, gave them land, gave them all the things > you accuse them of holding back but they have YET to give them a > state. And why? Because of Gaza. Because terrorism has not ended. > Because incitement to terrorism has not ended. There is no > encroachment, there is giving up of land. > You talk about agreements? Have you read them? Have you read the Oslo > accords? No mention of settlements. But there is mention of a stop to > incitement. Have you read the agreement to freeze construction in the > west bank - disputed land according to international law, not occupied > like rhetoric states. The agreement clearly states that construction > in Jerusalem is exempt. the US SIGNED OFF on this agreement. If Biden > is pissed about an announcement of construction then maybe he hasn't > read his own governments agreements. > Agreements go both ways. > > But maybe the lack of peace is Abbass refusal to talk to Israel. Maybe > it's his holding off for more concessions. Jerusalem is an issue of > negotiations, not of American command. > > But yes, aid to Israel should be cut off. Aid to the Palestinians > should be cut off. Aid to Egypt should be cut off. Let the middle east > fend for itself. > > Sorry, but your argument shows a full and total lack of understanding > of what is going on and especially of history. > >> I don't support Israel because I think they are no different than Hamas >> other then they use their military to terrorize people. We need to cut > off >> support completely, especially after this most recent incident where they >> essential told Biden to go fuck himself. Netanyahu state that 3,000 years >> ago, Israel built Jerusalem...well 2,000 years ago, the Romans kicked > Israel >> out and until a little over 50 years ago, Israel didn't exist. Not a very >> strong argument. Israel has no interest in a peaceful solution with >> Palestine. They would rather act like a spoiled child that always gets > her >> way since the US blocks any action taken against Israel (who, BTW, has had >> more UN resolutions leveled against her than Iraq had...). I think the >> appropriate action for the US now would be to suspend all aid until Israel >> complies with all agreement and stops encroaching on Palestinian lands. >> >> That is not anti-Semitism btw...that is justice. >> >> Tikkun Olam! >> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:313945 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/unsubscribe.cfm
