> > > > You could say that a gun obtained legally is simply a gun
> > > waiting to
> > > > be stolen and used illegally...
> > > >
> > >
> > > You could say that....but still more gun control on law abiding
> > > citizens will not stop the illegal aquisition of firearms.
> >
> > Since we've yet to try it seems stubborn to claim that.
>
> So by tacking on more laws that criminals pay no attention
> to, we are going to stop them from getting guns? Ok.
Exactly - that's what I meant. Because the reason we do enact laws is
so that criminals can pay no attention to them.
So, any law that is ever flouted is a bad law?
> > > > Sounds fishy to me.
> > >
> > > Anything sounds fish to a leftist gun control advocate
> except more
> > > gun control.
> >
> > Thanks for the label. But I think that I'll refuse it.
>
> If the shoe fits...
Not sure how it can... Since I'm a gun owner myself (tho not a regular
user). My father spent several years teaching firearm and hunting
safety and taught my brother and I well.
> > But the main point is that many people do not have guns for the
> > reasons often suggested (defense and such) - they have them
> for full
> > scale, drawn out combat.
>
> I don't know anyone that has guns for "full scale drawn out
> combat" Everyone I know has them for either hunting, their
> job, or personal protection. If you and your family were at
> home late at night and someone broke into your home and had a
> gun. What would you do? Call the police and hide in a
> closet? Hope they don't find you? Not me. As soon as that
> person hears the shotgun rack, he is either going to run or
> walk to where the sound came from and I guarantee the next
> sound he hears would be the last.
By that statement I meant that people tend to stockpile both weapons and
ammunition unreasonabuly. There is no legitimate reason for private
citizen to have thousands od rounds of ammo.
In any case, if your guns are stored properly then there's very little
chance that they will do you any good in a late-night burglary attempt
(although most burgulars would be scared away simply by you being
awake).
If you store your guns locked and unloaded with ammo separately locked
then they just can't serve that purpose. If you store them loaded and
in the open (such as a gun cabinet) then it's pretty likely that a
stealthy burgalar could reach them before you do.
Of course that doesn't even mention the fact that others may also - your
children for example.
Basically if a gun is kept so that it will do me any good in an
emergency situation then it's a greater threat to my family than to the
(very unlikely) criminal.
> > You claim different, legitimate uses. Fine. So what's the line?
> > There are people (many people) with hundreds of guns and
> thousands if
> > not tens of thousands rounds of ammo.
>
> There is no line, it's their right to have them too. Most
> people that have that many guns are collectors. You see that
> with anything, I mean look at people that have hundreds of
> cars, or baseball cards, or toys, or whatever.
Fine. So again, why would those collectors need massive amounts of
ammo? The guns in my family are collectable heirlooms, for the most
part. Which means they are kept in as good as condition as possible:
rarely fired and kept in pieces (clips removed and empty, etc).
> > If you're buying a gunfor defense of home and body then do
> you really
> > need more ammo than the gun can hold at one time? What defensive
> > emergecy would require more than one clip?
>
> Any number of things, a rabid dog, there could be more than
> one. More than one person breaking in. If gun control
> advocates wouldn't have knocked the number of bullets allowed
> in a clip down, then I might agree with you. My 9MM only
> holds 12, used to hold 18. My .22 only holds 10. And you
> can't just go and buy 10 bullets usually. I can only buy
> boxes of 20 for my .22.
An, my god, rabid dogs! Do you know how desperate that sounds.
I'm sorry - but if you're attacked, at one time, by more rabid dogs than
a single clip could handle - well, just kiss your ass goodbye because
it's judgement day my friend.
People breaking in... Sure. But I thought that the mere prescense of a
gun was enough to send criminals running? Still - you don't think that
12 bullets are enough for any single incident?
> > If you're sportsman then why maintain ammo in the house at
> all? Leave
> > the guns empty until you go out and then buy what you need
> on the way.
> > Hunting (well, it does depend on what you're huting), for example
> > (unless you're a drunk hunter) generally requires very little
> > ammunition.
>
> That's pointless. Why would you do that. You don't go to
> the supermarket to buy food the day you are going to eat it
> do you? Ammo ain't cheap and I like to buy as much as
> possible when it's on sale.
Well - some people do. But when the milk goes bad, well - you just
flush it. A loaded gun in the house has other ramifications.
The more ammo kept in the house, the harder it is to keep it safe (in
other words locked separately from the guns). The more guns kept in a
house the harder it is to keep them safe.
I'm not saying it's impossible by any means, but it doesn't become more
difficult.
> I've looked around and can't find numbers that support your
> "evidence" so I would like to see what you have. Most of the
> information I found stated that most illegal guns
> wereinvolved gun trafficking, with stolen guns from private
> residences being on small component.
You're right that it's definately not "most" - I've seen numbers as low
as 8% and as high as 20%. Although the figures are almost exclusively
"one to one" relationships (in other words that man stole a gun then
used it for a crime).
Many of the illegal gun sellers get their guns from multiple sources
("straw" buys - where friends or family buy, thefts, corrupt dealers,
etc). And it's not just private residences but shops (pawn shops seem a
big target) and clubs as well.
In cases where a gun is stolen, then sold to an illegal dealer then sold
again the gun is not considered a result of theft, but a result of an
illegal buy. Also the case where somebody takes a gun from a friend or
family (regardless if their was permission involved) are not counted as
direct gun theft.
According to the department of justice 39.6 of guns used in crimes (from
a poll of state inmates) were obtained from friends and family, 39.4%
were obtained illegally.
Also from the DOJ: "341,000 incidents of firearm theft occurred per
year, 1987-92"
Jim Davis
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