contention in the post that I just decided to blanket them all. The problem
with books trying to give a sociological review of the time period and
culture is that they ignore the Jewish writings of the time. Does it matter
what the Talmud says about the Sanhedrin? Nope. Does it matter what Jewish
law says about the subject. Nope. All that matters is speculation. This is
not against you but against many of the sociologists and historians who only
want to deal with one set of material for their ideas and not others. It's a
rather common problem. I can point to many, many writings and histories that
ignore any of the Jewish records or writings and then makes conclusions
without that information.
But its the cross we have to bear. ;)
(you should hear my rant again Crowley and Wescott on the use of Hebrew
materials without having a clear understanding of the language)
> Not devoid, but very lacking. I was hesitant to even use the word "tribes"
> because I suspected it would get me in trouble. I wish I knew which book
it
> was that I was reading that talked about the evolution of the christ
figure
> as social opposition to the Caesar. I don't claim the knowledge for my own
> and like I said before, it was over a decade ago that I read it. I'm going
> to go further out on my limb and say I don't think most of them were
> messianic figures and that would jibe with you're saying.
>
> -Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's "THE PASSION"
>
>
> > Well, chief priest is probably the chief priest. Judaism still had one
as
> > the temple was in existance. There are actual Jewish priests (hereditary
> > traced through the father).
> > I hate to say this but much of what your saying here is devoid of an
> > undestanding of Judaism, the Jewish culture of the time, etc. The 12
> tribes
> > are a division that was mostly gone by the time we're talking about. (10
> of
> > the tribes were in exile). The figure of a human messiah claiming to be
> God,
> > the son of God, etc. is against the Jewish understanding of what the
> messiah
> > is. A person who does not obey the Torah laws in his claim to be a
messiah
> > is also against the Jewish understanding. There are a TON of issues like
> > those which basically pushes the entire Jesus incedent out of the Jewish
> > realm into something else. (A side note is that there are no reliable
> > records of the entire episode from the Roman or Jewish sides. Even the
> > Josephus has been altered).
> > For Christians, the entire episode is one that has to be based on faith
> and
> > their writings. For Jews, it's just not that important (no disrespect,
but
> > that's the base truth).
> >
> > > <cf_speculation>
> > > It is possible for entire sections to be, if not mistranslated per se,
> > > misinterpreted. Many of the concepts are presented in such a way that
> they
> > > are rife with cultural interpretation. When referring to the "chief
> > > priests", what does that mean? Are they actually jewish priests? Are
> they
> > > roman priests, but maybe that was lost in understanding? Are they
jewish
> > > slaves who the romans used as their figureheads to control the jewish
> > > population and they are given the title of "chief priests" by the
> romans?
> > >
> > > Take the latter. One reference to a roman installed "chief priest"
here
> or
> > > there and a translator's approach to later sections will be skewed
based
> > on
> > > that misunderstanding.
> > > </cf_speculation>
> > >
> > > <cf_sociology>
> > > It's also interesting to look at the cultural background of the
> political
> > > necessity of a christ figure. At the time, the Caesar was god. Perhaps
> > > self-appointed, but culturally that was his position. There were also
> > many,
> > > many jewish tribes/sects/groups what have you. There was particularly
a
> > > differentiation of city and country jewish communities. The jewish
> people
> > as
> > > a whole were trying to come up with a way to get out from under the
> > romans.
> > > They needed an alternative to the Caesar. But they were also fighting
> > > amongst themselves for power, just as people in the city today have
> > > different social needs than people in the country. I've read accounts
of
> > > many viable christ figures that came out of the jewish communities,
but
> > the
> > > personage of Jesus as a diametrical opposite to the rich, wealthy,
> > powerful
> > > and ruthless Caesar was the one that history remembers and was
> eventually
> > > documented in the bible. Documented of course by the ones who put him
in
> > > power.
> > > </cf_sociology>
> > >
> > > I'm just stringing together things I've read years ago and
suppositions
> > > based on that. They provide a viable enough context for me to see the
> > > Vatacan II pronouncement as credible as any of the religious history.
> But
> > > I'm not a believer. If anything these days, I'm an armchair scholar.
> > >
> > > So my only question is, if intellectually there's enough reason to
cast
> > > doubt on the story, why stick steadfastly to a story that justifies
some
> > > people's hatred of some other people?
> > >
> > > -Kevin
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Matthew Small" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's "THE PASSION"
> > >
> > >
> > > > OK, that's a single word, but are there entire sections of text
which
> > are
> > > mistranslated so that it appears that Jews are responsible for the
death
> > of
> > > Jesus rather than some other group - the Romans, perhaps? Like Brob,
> I'd
> > > always thought it was the Romans alone who put Jesus to death, but
then
> I
> > > started reading the Bible.
> > > >
> > > > Matthew 26:14-16
> > > > 14Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the
> > chief
> > > priests 15and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him
over
> > to
> > > you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on
> > Judas
> > > watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
> > > >
> > > > John 18:12-13
> > > > 12Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish
> > > officials arrested Jesus. They bound him 13and brought him first to
> Annas,
> > > who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not holding anybody today responsible for the death of Jesus,
but
> > the
> > > Bible does say what it says. Are you saying that these passages are
> > > incorrect?
> > > >
> > > > -Matthew Small
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Michael Dinowitz
> > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 3:12 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's "THE PASSION"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, the actual word is Michashefa, which is the feminine form
> used
> > in
> > > the
> > > > particular place. Its from the root Kishuf.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:55 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's "THE PASSION"
> > > >
> > > > > I can document it with a single word. Michushef. This Hebrew
word
> > has
> > > a
> > > > > meaning of sorceress or witch. i.e. one who uses impure forces
to
> > > affect
> > > > > reality. A type of magic basically. Because of the way Greek is,
> the
> > > word
> > > > > they used was basically one who uses herbs or poisons which was
> > > translated
> > > > > later on as poisoner and on and on. King James has it as witch,
> > which
> > > > pisses
> > > > > off the modern pagans.
> > > > > What the word is and what it has become and is becoming over
time
> > and
> > > due
> > > > to
> > > > > 'popular' input shows exactly how the Christian Bible has
changed.
> > > Yes,
> > > > the
> > > > > original Greek is the original Greek, but who here reads that?
We
> > all
> > > read
> > > > > the English.
> > > > > A change in a word can be a change in the entire story. Take my
> > > comment
> > > > > about the last supper not being able to be the Passover Seder.
> That
> > > was
> > > > > probably added later in a translation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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