No offense Josh...
But I KNEW someone was going to pipe in with "But Micro$oft does it!"
<grin>
Hitler did it too. But doesn't mean I'm building gas chambers (uh er..
rather) showers for my clients.
Forgive the radical reference. But I've never been one for "well they
do it.. so I should too!" mentality. Believe me, I completely
understand that support costs money. BOY do I!
But let's look at reality here folks:
Microsoft
ColdFusion
~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
OS - Required Added
Functionality - Optional
OS - Without it, computer don't run Without it; ASP,
PHP, Java, etc. (All free, I might add)
I could go on, but you get the point. Do you have options over M$?
Sure. Does that mean you need to learn about a new OS to keep your
systems and network running? Yup! That's a choice. Just like the
"choice" to run CF.
*AGAIN* - Don't get me wrong. I TRULY LOVE CF. I WANT to run CF. I
want my CLIENTS to run CF.
And let me add -- Linksys is one of the more stable and well liked
companies because their support is 24/7, always free and RMA's are a
snap! Does it cost them? SURE! Do they reap the bene's from it? You
BET they do! Can MM offer 100% free support all of the time? Probably
not. But when a veteran of CF comes to them with a problem, something
this serious, that has been discussed OVER and OVER again, it seems a
little like a kick in the boxers to be asked for a credit card.
At any rate.. the cc issue really isn't what I want to focus on. What
I'd like to focus on is a solution... For EVERYONE.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:00 AM
| To: CF-Talk
| Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
|
|
| I've been staying out of this thread, but this (paying ahead
| for support) is an industry standard at this point in life.
| Microsoft does it, and even if they were the only ones, it
| would be quite trend-setting, but they're not. And any
| business that is run like a business (or apply this to IT
| department) realizes sometimes you have to pay for support.
|
| I'm not saying that what you're seeing isn't a real bug, but
| tech support lines the world over get 99 calls saying it's a
| bug and it's bad code or user error to every 1 that is truly
| a bug. So it is understandable that they would expect a CC
| ahead of time.
|
| Just my 2c.
|
| Josh
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: James Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 10:34 AM
| To: CF-Talk
| Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
|
|
| Jesse, what Lee is trying to say is that MM should help him
| with the problem, without him having to pay extra for tech support.
|
| I had a problem getting CFMX to run on my development system
| - the services wouldn't start when my system booted, MM
| wanted to charge me for tech support, and it wasn't until I
| posted to this list finding others with the same problem.
| They helped me and fixed the problem.
|
| I know Lee personally and he is one of the biggest CF
| supporters. Lee has helped me patiently through many CF
| problems, and to hear he's having these problems with MM is
| very discouraging.
|
| James Johnson
| www.smb-studios.com
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Jesse Noller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:05 AM
| To: CF-Talk
| Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
|
|
| Lee-
|
| While I can understand your predicament, and I will
| pass this issue around to other I know of, I fail to see the
| rationale here.
|
| Software, by it's very nature (programmed by humans, who are
| fallible) tends to have some bugs and problems.
|
| There is a large group of people who run CFMX without
| issues and the only people who scream on the mailing lists
| and the forums are those with issues, therefore, if you took
| a daily snapshot of it all, you could very well think that
| the software, CFMX, is crap.
|
| However, look at the support forums for WindowsXP,
| Apache, IIS, any of them. You'll see the same thing.
|
| The fact is, no software is fool-proof. I was in CFQA
| and Development helping to work on CFMX, I know we ran this
| puppy through every little test you could think of.
|
| Does this mean the software is bulletproof? No.
|
| So, now you have some software you buy, and you have a
| problem. Do you send operating systems back when you run into
| an issue? Do you take a car back and ask for a refund if you
| find out a window is acting funny?
|
| No, you go and get the issue resolved. My issue is that
| we cannot work on issues we cannot recreate in house. Let me
| give you a typical thread:
|
| User: CFMX suckxx!
| Someone else: What are you seeing?
| User: Stuff!
| Someone else: OoooKay... What sort of stuff
| User: Stuff that makes the server crash!
|
| While Matt just sent a message decrying public
| communication between those of us at Macromedia and the
| community, how can we possibly work on bugs and issues that
| are reduced to "stuff is broken".
|
| I can't recreate "stuff is broken". I can recreate "If
| I run Code X the server crashes under this OS, version and
| patch level".
|
| Our primary method of recreating and debugging issues
| is an escalation through technical support. That's why they are there.
|
| Technical support is the first line, they get the ducks
| in a row to allow development and QA to create a fully
| functional test case in house so that we can actually FIND
| the problem.
|
| Going through support also assures that the problem
| will be fixed within a reasonable amount of time.
|
| Are we working on fixing bugs? Yes. Could we have
| missed you bug? Yes. Are we working on recreating some of the
| problem pointed out on the mailing lists and forums? Yes.
|
| How are supposed to communicate that? How can we
| publically say "We are working on a bug from the forums that
| 50 users are seeing" it's a matter of "firestorms" if 1 user
| sees it, it's a fact of life that unless it is properly
| escalated (through support), it may not be looked at for some
| time, however, if 50 users say "yeah, we see X under Y
| conditions" it will more than likely be fixed more quickly.
|
| Sorry for the pseudo rant, but there seems to be a
| misconception on the reason why technical support is actually
| there, they are the pipeline to development, and to actually
| getting bugs fixed. Not the forums, not the Mailing lists.
|
| While many of us internally may read these mediums, and
| watch for "trends" the "smaller" issues slip through the
| cracks. This is a problem of not only manpower (as it would
| take an army to sort through the data). But also resources.
| That's why support it there.
|
| I highly recommend, if you are seeing an issue, to
| contact technical support, period. They are the best bet of
| you seeing your issue included in the next updater, or
| getting a custom patch.
|
|
| Jesse Noller
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Macromedia Server Development
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Lee Fuller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:48 AM
| > To: CF-Talk
| > Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
| >
| > Yes. But that's really not the point.
| >
| > I know you're just a "messenger" Jesse.. So I'm not trying to slay
| > you. But understand that many of us who support CF had to go to our
| > superiors and convince them to spend quite a bit of cash to
| support CF
|
| > in the firt place. Then, after convincing them that it's a good
| > thing, they're now seeing their investment turn into more
| expense for
| > man-hours, customers jumping ship because of the lack of stability,
| > customers simply blowing off CF because it's become (and
| I'm quoting
| > at least three clients here) "...too bloated to hassle with any
| > more.", etc, etc.
| >
| > Now I'm being asked to go back these same people, who are now
| > SERIOUSLY questioning why they allowed us to talk them into
| spending
| > money on this beast, and ask them to allow me to use the company
| > credit card to (even
| > potentially) pay for a problem that would simply go away
| with a quick
| > flick of a mouse button over an "uninstall" file?
| >
| > I'm being told that they are thinking about simply sending back the
| > software and asking for a refund. Now, color me silly but that
| > doesn't sound like people who will support my asking for a
| credit card
|
| > to secure ANYTHING but maybe the freight to ship the discs,
| manual and
|
| > box back to Macromedia.
| >
| > Again.. Don't get me wrong. I'm a HUGE fan of the CF technology..
| > TRULY! We've been CF supporters since 1.0. That's why
| this all seems
|
| > so sad and frustrating. We've watched CF go from "no brainer --
| > fantastic technology!" to "OH MY GOD.. IT'S DOWN **AGAIN**??
| > WHY????!!! And they want MORE MONEY TO FIX IT???!!!"
| >
| > So you can see, it's a bit of a bad position I'm in.
| >
| >
| >
| > | -----Original Message-----
| > | From: Jesse Noller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| > | Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 6:38 AM
| > | To: CF-Talk
| > | Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
| > |
| > |
| > | They asked for a credit card number to secure an amount
| unless it is
|
| > | a bug in CFMX, correct?
| > |
| > | Jesse Noller
| > | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| > | Macromedia Server Development
| > |
| > | > -----Original Message-----
| > | > From: Lee Fuller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:36 AM
| > | > To: CF-Talk
| > | > Subject: RE: LONG time CF Supporter - About ready to dump CF!
| > | >
| > | > Yup... And (per my post) they've asked for support $ to
| > | figure it out.
| > | >
| > | > | I'm assuming you've made your problems known to Macromedia?
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
|
|
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