Scott,
Just curious, when did you learn .NET? Was it out of a book? while you
were on a Coldfusion Job? or did Microsoft train you?
Cheers
Gareth.
Scott Barnes wrote:
Charlie,
Here we go.. I'm going to keep this onpoint as best I can as I
feel it's trailing off.
In many respects, you're intent is to push the Adobe has it
under control belief, which is perfectly fine, whilst I'm on the
flipside simply saying - I really don't care if they do or they don't,
but should you wish to change, previous threads are some data points to
consider.
(Apologise if I cut out some of the rant, some of it, i felt was
a little to - ahuh, and i'm not sure what made you assume I've been
under a rock for the last 10 years when it comes to Adobe/Macromedia,
but ok).
"..(You
ask about FUD, which is engendering "fear, uncertainty, and doubt",
for the kids watching at home. This is perhaps a perfect example of
it. You state things you feel to be true, from a lofty position, when
they're not quite, and when they have a tendency to assert cause for
concern when there may be none.).."- Charlie
I've stated criteria in which I consider to be weaknesses in
Coldfusion, simply because in actual fact they are. If you break away
from the MXNA blog sphere over time, and listen to the outer threads of
conversations (over past 5years), compete analysis and basically
interaction with folks whom aren't favourable to Coldfusion, you'll
most likely come to a similar conclusion. Right now, for example, If
you were to look at this from a compete situation, PHP/Ruby on Rails is
more ASP.NET
(Coldfusion doesn't even rate on the radar) competitor, given factors
like Wordpress etc play a role in online hosting. Check out Netcraft
reports if you'd like.
On a side and personal note, I personally have the belief, that
if one is to label FUD it's effectively saying " you have no
integrity and will use any underhanded tactic you can to achieve your
goals..", now for a peaceful chap like yourself whom as you say, "doesn't
want to pick a fight", you're certainly heading in the wrong
direction then.
Keep in perspective, everything that one says in a forum setting
such as this will be vague, as it's human dialogue evolving as each new
point arises. At times, a negative point may arise and to note this and
simply assume that the person is then disseminating negative (and
vague) information - therefore is FUD, is well...a weak/cop out posture
to take. As I guess, I reserve the right to counter-FUD you? (is there
a stamp we can buy for that?)
As in that perspective it's a case of, "say positive things
only, should you find a negative point, halt the dialogue. Respective
parties then are to go fact find, collect raw un-biased evidence, bring
it back to the dialogue in question and present, or else it will be
stamped & labeled as FUD". If that is likely to occur in this
instance, then this will be even more of long drawn out thread. Accuse
me of FUD, but substantiate it at the very least otherwise it's you
whom are disseminating negative (and vague) labels.
I also say that without emotion attached (ie not with hostility,
but with more of a less deepened amount of antagonism)
"..Are
you saying that's your perception of the CE program? Again I'll argue
that you're misinformed (which is a shame, when you carry your
confidence so highly).The CE program offers many benefits, and none of
them involve pizza and beer.." - Charlie
Awaiting the the actual argument.. referring to the website is
weak, on two counts. It's insulting that you think i've not read
the website in which the Adobe CE program outlines these and
secondly you've not outlined what they are. To help you on this journey
further, look at Google and search for "Microsoft MVP" even the
"Microsoft MVP Summit". The point is that it scales, it's not just a
badge or a collective group of people whom meet silently, have
discussions and know inside secrets and then that's it. It gets
amplified, not just by us but also by the community. It's the community
spirit in which i'd like you to focus more in on, instead of defending
the feature matrix or quoting FAQ.
They are Apples and Oranges, simply because the MVP ethos is
made up of more segments, different technologies and overall different
approaches. Question is whether you're open to this projected theory.
"..I'm
cool with that. Again, not looking to "win" the argument. Just debating
specific points.." - Charlie
I agree, only the other person can let you win any argument. I
find elements of your responses to be personal & in many respects
whilst minor, insulting, my "crack the knuckles" remark was intended to
be a joke, thus i followed with the "hehe". I raise this as I'm not
sure you are just in for a debate on specific points? In that where is
your position on the matter that doesn't orbit mine?
"..You
then say, "The point is, CF community used to be more vibrant than it
is today, and not much in the technology or ownership has changed."
Wow, talk about sweeping generalizations. Again, that's FUD. You can't
defend that assertion. The first is debatable, and the second seems
just, well, again, misinfoirmed. You say "I follow CF8 closely as well
as CF9". Well, when so many think CF 8 has made great strides and it's
been pretty unanimously praised, this again just comes across as
throwing water on an oil fire.." - Charlie
Here's where I have to play the "..you know this from living
in Australia for the last 10 years then.." card (which I'm
disliking may I add)?
That, or did you assume I meant globally in the Coldfusion
community?
If the later, please keep into context, we are talking about
Australia/New Zealand in this thread and not US/Outer regions. Neither
of us can defend that assertion as again, this is dialogue in a public
forum for one, and secondly neither of us have attendance records for
all Coldfusion related events and user groups over the past 5-10 years.
I'd wager however, and assert my opinion that it has declined in
numbers and it's not as vibrant as it once was (using Brisbane for
example is quite clear, as i've attended CFUG meetings for the past
decade, and used to on more regular basis prior to Microsoft - which is
has only been 1yr). Having an opinion being asserted, whilst it has
negative outcome, doesn't automatically qualify as FUD simply because
lack of raw unbiased evidence. As how again, could we conduct open
discussions as the moment someone raises a negative point put forward
as an opinion, Charlie brings out the FUD stamp.
I'm not sure what your point about "..when so many think CF
8 has made great strides and it's been pretty unanimously praised, this
again just comes across as throwing water on an oil fire.." as I
don't recall provoking a point around whether or not it has or hasn't
made great strides? That for me is you taking me out of context and
soap boxing your pro-Coldfusion 8 speech, in which it has nothing to do
with the current discussion at hand - to which however, i would reply
with - we know, we agree, how does this affect the community debate?
As for, "Be clear however, there are more folks out
there using alternative langaues today than Coldfusion." Again, as I
said to Kai, this just isn't a problem for me. There are more people in
the US than in Australia. More bottles of Bud are sold worldwide than
VB. So what? IT isn't a zero-sum game. There's no one winner. Those who
think there has to be are setting themselves up for heartburn (if
they're feeling left out) or over-confidence (if they're on the winning
side). I'm simply arguing that things aren't quite as bad as some would
make them out to be. - Charlie
Agreed in part, yes this isn't a zero sum game, as for things
being as "bad as some would make them out to be" - i look
forward to hearing about your attendance at next local events to point
that out to a lot of folks whom disagree. This isn't a sudden shift in
numbers overnight to this cause, this argument or debate has been
ongoing for quite a number of years.
Barry: Would you say it's been happening for
what? 5+ years now?
I respect your input Charlie and this isn't me and you
thing, I'm singling you out more so to also illustrate that its easy to
adjust an argument to focus on the person and critique their specific
points blow for blow, but in the end, I put it to you that it
degenerates further and no initial solution is found and it's ends in
character assassinations (subtle or direct). I'd also encourage you to
accept that having a opposing opinion on a given topic within a
public forum, that doesn't demand evidence follow doesn't automatically
qualify as being FUD.
Furthermore to all, aassuming Microsoft gains in this entire
position is realistically quite clear, we don't from a ASP.NET perspective
(ie ASP.NET side
of the brain says, shhhh..let them be, but the rest of the products say
..."no, they need help..").
However, and to all let me be clear also, my intent is to simply
state, Coldfusion is a solution, I still enjoy on a personal
level working with and interacting with, Microsoft has an investment in
this community from both a Windows market share as well as products
like Office, SQL, Silverlight etc. It's in our best interest to ensure
interoperability not just from a technical standpoint but also from a
community perspective are in place and healthy. I'd rather
Microsoftee's (staff/community) collaborate more than simply setup
borders and continue to breed elements of distrust. We have 1000's of
brands, millions of customers and so many intersecting points that it's
ludicrous for us to draw battle lines and attack competing communities
with underhanded tactics.
We have enough trust issues in this companies past, we don't end
to create more for the future. It's a different culture than it was 5
years ago, reject or accept that, its up to you. No one person is/can
be a single brand in todays IT environment.
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35 PM, charlie
arehart < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Like I
said, "I'm not looking to pick a fight", so the cracking knuckles don't
scare me. :-) Look, I'm just replying to the points made. You don't
need to see each response as a challenge to "put 'em up", literally or
figuratively. Like I just said to Kai, I wasn't disagreeing with
everything you said, just the specific things I replied to. And again,
I feel I must clarify again. (You ask about FUD, which is engendering
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt", for the kids watching at home. This is
perhaps a perfect example of it. You state things you feel to be true,
from a lofty position, when they're not quite, and when they have a
tendency to assert cause for concern when there may be none.)
As for
the AdobeCommunityExpert/MVP issue, you say, "I wouldn't consider
having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the yearly membership",
t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it." Are you saying that's
your perception of the CE program? Again I'll argue that you're
misinformed (which is a shame, when you carry your confidence so
highly). The CE program offers many benefits, and none of them involve
pizza and beer. One can find more about the program, including
benefits, at http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/faq.html.
You also
say, "Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the world,
being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit", as if that's in
stark opposition to anything Adobe offers. Yet, again, it's not. There
will be an Adobe Community Summit at Adobe HQ (the 3rd
annual) May 12-16. We, too, will have access to Adobe engineers,
product managers, and executives, with the same chance to ask hard
questions and get hard answers, and to be educated to take knowledge
back to the community. Just don't think things are quite as
apples/oranges as you want to make them out to be.
As for
one of your concluding remarks, "if there is a problem here, you've
just fixed them in one email chad [I think you meant me, Charlie], yet
if there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire proposition of
Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong." I guess I'll take the
presumption that I'm not, so perhaps I've fixed things in one email.
Good. :-) But I don't suspect you (or even others here) really think
that. I'm cool with that. Again, not looking to "win" the argument.
Just debating specific points.
You then
say, "The point is, CF community used to be more vibrant than it is
today, and not much in the technology or ownership has changed." Wow,
talk about sweeping generalizations. Again, that's FUD. You can't
defend that assertion. The first is debatable, and the second seems
just, well, again, misinfoirmed. You say "I follow CF8 closely as well
as CF9". Well, when so many think CF 8 has made great strides and it's
been pretty unanimously praised, this again just comes across as
throwing water on an oil fire.
As for,
"Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative
langaues today than Coldfusion." Again, as I said to Kai, this just
isn't a problem for me. There are more people in the US than in
Australia. More bottles of Bud are sold worldwide than VB. So what? IT
isn't a zero-sum game. There's no one winner. Those who think there has
to be are setting themselves up for heartburn (if they're feeling left
out) or over-confidence (if they're on the winning side). I'm simply
arguing that things aren't quite as bad as some would make them out to
be.
Like
you, I'm just putting thoughts on the table. People can take them or
leave them.
/charlie
*cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad,
it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh.
· Adobe
CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand more benefits
in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of difference in our
offering, now what does that have to do with the current thread. Simply
that the existing model could be improved better, i won't stipulate
exactly how as that's obviously not my job. What I am doing is trying
to tease out some folks within the community whom are wanting change,
to start thinking about the program, looking at what Microsoft MVP
offers and even evolve it further or use it as a benchmark on what not
to do, either way, start the dialogue..
I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the
yearly membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it. Being
recognised as a community leader is and should be a big deal, as these
are the rockstars of your community. If you simply casually throw it
out there to random names that have no story attached to them, or no
visual clear definitive way to articulate whom they are and what they
did to arrive at such point, then how can others look to getting
insight into the value being offered by the program in question.
Example: Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the
world, being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit. In this
summit they will have access to various Product Teams and folks from
various levels. They'll get to ask the hard questions and get the hard
answers, which they then take back to their respective regions and
distill into what there peers have asked them to find out and so on.
They are the true backbone of a community, the connectors between
Corporate and Community as they can/have one on hand praised us but
then immediately backhand us for not doing our jobs. Product Teams
listen and do what they can so next year at the next Summit, the
beatings won't continue..
Benefit Realisation.
· Now
Chad, I like you sport, but you've got to be kidding if you assume I
don't follow what Adobe does across the board. CF8 vs CF9 is not as
important as where is Adobe taking its product range? More to the
point, early this week they announced a bit of an executive overall,
now what impact will this have and do you fully comprehend what it
means for them to have David Mendels out of the picture? (could be
nothing, could be something). Point is, where is this ship sailing
towards and which direction. Adobe have a lot of fires on many fronts
they are putting out piece by piece. Consolidation of products is
obvious and a platform, true platform this time round is likely to
happen, the question remains however how does Coldfusion play a role in
this puzzle. FYI, I follow CF8 closely as well as CF9.
· I'll
leave the rapid prototyping alone as that could strike a bar fight, as
there's some basic truths in this conversation that would be the same
as waving a red flag in front of a room of bulls.. suffice to say, make
note i used the reference to Ruby on Rails and not ASP.NET,
but i could include that as well. In fact play it safe, lets strike
that remark from the record shall we :)
· Rather
then debate blow for blow on my point, i stand by my point's and i put
it to you to prove me wrong. In fact, prove them all wrong :) as if
there is a problem here, you've just fixed them in one email chad, yet
if there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire proposition of
Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong. The point is, CF community used
to be more vibrant than it is today, and not much in the technology or
ownership has changed. In fact I'd say Adobe's ownership of Coldfusion
has given it a boost over Macromedia, but overall the bodies and minds
haven't changed.. so what has?
FUD confuses me at times? like
what's the agenda? disrupt the Adobe scene so it's chaos and you all
turn on the company with pitchforks? I mean I could do that and there
are techniques to do that, but i'd firstly do it via layers of
abstraction as the key to doing so is to ensure you're not directly
linked to the riot in question - or it could be a guy, on a Saturday
assessing the thread and whines about how recruitment companies have
got it all wrong, how these little press releases all have it wrong,
again after again, after again. Hell, you can check out Netcraft
reports and argue they have it all wrong to ...sure i can appreciate it
all, but i've layed out my opinion, some weak data points in the armour
of that which is Coldfusion and it's entirely up to you to digest them,
reject them or use them.
Be clear however, there are more
folks out there using alternative langaues today than Coldfusion. Why,
are they all morons? what elements of success can you bring back to the
able if you were to explore outside the CF bubble? (community,
features, lighthouse wins).
In my experience, FUD is 3 letters
layed down on the table, when one can't find reasons why to like or
dislike something.
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM,
charlie arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I'm really not
looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the points Scott made,
yet I found quite a few that I'd contend:
> The difference
between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on their
efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year
> because you did
an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the
independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically
> mean you'll get
it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea.
That's the way the
Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for life". :-)
> whom are
your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition
do they get and above all what level of support?
Adobe CEs do get
recognition, both by their acceptance into the program, and promotion
of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for levels of
support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and these
benefits come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have
teamed with Adobe to offer them things, both that make them more
capable and that simply give them a form of repayment for their efforts.
> where do you
see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the server itself but the
surrounding ecosystem.
Scott, here's where
we have to wonder how much you're still following CF closely. CF8 has
been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are already underway. As for
the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it clear that CF is at a big
part of the integration story for Flex, Blaze, AIR, and other leading
technologies. Do those get the majority of play? Sure. Is CF always
mentioned? No, not for now. They also want to reach developers using
other backends, but CF is always going to be at the center of easy
integration from those client apps to the back end.
> There is lack
of rapid prototyping.
Um, really? I guess
it depends on what one considers to be rapid prototyping, but I think
many would say that CF is quite good at this. Sure, there are many ways
to look at this topic, and it would be easy to trot out how much more
VS provides to a .Net developer than CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF Studio,
but one may argue that CFML's very ease of use and high-level nature
allows folks to develop quickly even without a fully-evolved IDE.
> There is lack
of community spirit.
Well, your points
are well taken, but I don't think most would agree that they equate to
your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and yes, recently)
been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why some may feel
that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have to recognize the
position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) that we are doing
the same. This discussion is walking a fine line between a circle jerk
and a bar fight, and we need to avoid it degrading into either. Again,
I'm not looking to pick a fight. Just offering some contrary thought.
/charlie
The difference between an MVP and
Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on their efforts. For example, if
you make MVP this year because you did an outstanding job last year
(and made the criteria that the independent body agreed upon) it
doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get
bored with the idea.
It's apples for oranges really, but
the point I was trying to make is whom are your/our (still consider
myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do they get and above all
what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to mind a lot when I
think of this).
I could really go to town on this but
I think I'm overstepping my boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and
can't speak my mind on this one topic.
Suffice to say the following:
· There
is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the ranking
officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring
the Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
· There
is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be
billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst
other means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last
year, we made it scale and that product was zero install in January
last year.
· There
is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i
encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is
a large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being
100% loyal to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities
whom may not like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you,
they will respect you as professional for looking at theres. Diversity
is key, as it forms relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles
that benefit all. If you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG,
look at merging or colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of
their personal time to attend these, make them feel its an investment,
not a chore.
· The old
days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5 years.
What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years.
Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're
announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they
believed in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless
more stories like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology
weakness is tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask
yourself a simple question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5
years? not just the server itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
· There
is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is something
more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't produce a
solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up what
you're doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons
and understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity.
Ruby On Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong
hands, and it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, but the
reason why it had a nice amount of run on the boards was simply because
it empowered engineers to pump out solutions rapidly.
· There
is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value does
one get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a
video or presentation they can view online anyway then what value are
you adding to peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what
value are they offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is
debating on CFAussie really the right place to do so? and so on...
where is your aggregation point for the CF virgin out there? how does
one sound a bell and all flock to a single rally point and what is that
rally point?
CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the
decline really is not the argument here. Assume for this exercise it
is, say there entire system is about to crumble and FUD is based of
truth. Now what would you do differently to change that and how would
you execute it? I say this as we assume .NET is losing numbers daily
and we expect it to grow by 20% each year and that's what we do, we
work hard to make it grow year on year. We never relax as being
successful is really easy, staying successful, now that is truly an art.
When I joined the CF Community many
years ago, CFUG.org.au for one was my entrance, the people I
meet throughout my career have been remarkable and have been close
friends. I have a lot of good and bad stories to tell around this
language and I'll be honest, it's something I hope to instill into the
Silverlight/WPF community world-wide going forward. I understood what
makes a technology community great, and it wasn't brand worship or
individuals within Macromedia/Adobe we should worship, it was more the
people around the brand/company. Folks you looked up to and respected
because they knew xyz feature better than any and would drop what they
were doing to educate you on it.
Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is
there is a lot of weaknesses in Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot
jobs for CF is one thing, seeing a lot of the same jobs a month later
is equally as bad as not seeing jobs for Coldfusion. There's a
distinction in quality vs quantity there.
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group.
To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
|
