Just a bit.. how embarassement.. On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Steve Onnis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > We all know Scott does have a tendency to ramble though > > -----Original Message----- > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf > Of Chad Renando > Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:36 PM > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not > FUD > from them too? > > > Hi Scott, > > I think you may have your threads crossed. Last time I checked, I was the > one making the case for cf devers to cross polinate into other languages > because I couldn't find anyone to support CF apps that come in. I think > you > are aiming at Charlie, the other CH-name-starting-dude. I dont' know half > of what you're talking about, but it sounds technical enough where I am > wanting to take credit 'cause it sounds like technical. I only know > projects in, resources to manage, work out, and making the fit in between. > I are manager now, I are not programmer. > > But if you want, I'll have a piece of you on Donky Kong. You name the > place, I'll bring the mame. > > Chad > who gets his behind kicked on the level with the bouncy spring things > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > *cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad, it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh. > > > > > > Adobe CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand more > > benefits in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of > > difference in our offering, now what does that have to do with the > > current thread. Simply that the existing model could be improved > > better, i won't stipulate exactly how as that's obviously not my job. > > What I am doing is trying to tease out some folks within the community > > whom are wanting change, to start thinking about the program, looking > > at what Microsoft MVP offers and even evolve it further or use it as a > > benchmark on what not to do, either way, start the dialogue.. > > > > I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the > > yearly membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it. > > Being recognised as a community leader is and should be a big deal, as > > these are the rockstars of your community. If you simply casually > > throw it out there to random names that have no story attached to > > them, or no visual clear definitive way to articulate whom they are > > and what they did to arrive at such point, then how can others look to > > getting insight into the value being offered by the program in question. > > > > Example: Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the > > world, being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit. In this > > summit they will have access to various Product Teams and folks from > various levels. > > They'll get to ask the hard questions and get the hard answers, which > > they then take back to their respective regions and distill into what > > there peers have asked them to find out and so on. They are the true > > backbone of a community, the connectors between Corporate and > > Community as they can/have one on hand praised us but then immediately > > backhand us for not doing our jobs. Product Teams listen and do what > > they can so next year at the next Summit, the beatings won't continue.. > > > > Benefit Realisation. > > > > Now Chad, I like you sport, but you've got to be kidding if you assume > > I don't follow what Adobe does across the board. CF8 vs CF9 is not as > > important as where is Adobe taking its product range? More to the > > point, early this week they announced a bit of an executive overall, > > now what impact will this have and do you fully comprehend what it > > means for them to have David Mendels out of the picture? (could be > > nothing, could be something). Point is, where is this ship sailing > > towards and which direction. Adobe have a lot of fires on many fronts > > they are putting out piece by piece. Consolidation of products is > > obvious and a platform, true platform this time round is likely to > > happen, the question remains however how does Coldfusion play a role > > in this puzzle. FYI, I follow CF8 closely as well as CF9. > > > > > > I'll leave the rapid prototyping alone as that could strike a bar > > fight, as there's some basic truths in this conversation that would be > > the same as waving a red flag in front of a room of bulls.. suffice to > > say, make note i used the reference to Ruby on Rails and not > > ASP.NET<http://asp.net/> > , > > but i could include that as well. In fact play it safe, lets strike > > that remark from the record shall we :) > > > > Rather then debate blow for blow on my point, i stand by my point's > > and i put it to you to prove me wrong. In fact, prove them all wrong > > :) as if there is a problem here, you've just fixed them in one email > > chad, yet if there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire > > proposition of Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong. The point is, CF > > community used to be more vibrant than it is today, and not much in > > the technology or ownership has changed. In fact I'd say Adobe's > > ownership of Coldfusion has given it a boost over Macromedia, but > > overall the bodies and minds haven't changed.. so what has? > > FUD confuses me at times? like what's the agenda? disrupt the Adobe > > scene so it's chaos and you all turn on the company with pitchforks? I > > mean I could do that and there are techniques to do that, but i'd > > firstly do it via layers of abstraction as the key to doing so is to > > ensure you're not directly linked to the riot in question - or it > > could be a guy, on a Saturday assessing the thread and whines about > > how recruitment companies have got it all wrong, how these little > > press releases all have it wrong, again after again, after again. > > Hell, you can check out Netcraft reports and argue they have it all > > wrong to ...sure i can appreciate it all, but i've layed out my > > opinion, some weak data points in the armour of that which is > > Coldfusion and it's entirely up to you to digest them, reject them or > use > them. > > > > Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative > > langaues today than Coldfusion. Why, are they all morons? what > > elements of success can you bring back to the able if you were to > explore > outside the CF bubble? > > (community, features, lighthouse wins). > > > > FYI, i recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point > > > > In my experience, FUD is 3 letters layed down on the table, when one > > can't find reasons why to like or dislike something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM, charlie arehart > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm really not looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the > > > points > > Scott made, yet I found quite a few that I'd contend: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured > > > > yearly > > on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year > > > > > > > because you did an outstanding job last year (and made the > > > > criteria that > > the independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically > > > > > > > mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get bored with the > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the way the Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for > life". > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what > > recognition do they get and above all what level of support? > > > > > > > > > > > > Adobe CEs do get recognition, both by their acceptance into the > > > program, > > and promotion of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for > > levels of support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and > > these benefits come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have teamed > > with Adobe to offer them things, both that make them more capable and > > that simply give them a form of repayment for their efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the > > > > server > > itself but the surrounding ecosystem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott, here's where we have to wonder how much you're still > > > following CF > > closely. CF8 has been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are > > already underway. As for the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it > > clear that CF is at a big part of the integration story for Flex, > > Blaze, AIR, and other leading technologies. Do those get the majority > > of play? Sure. Is CF always mentioned? No, not for now. They also want > > to reach developers using other backends, but CF is always going to be > > at the center of easy integration from those client apps to the back > end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is lack of rapid prototyping. > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, really? I guess it depends on what one considers to be rapid > > prototyping, but I think many would say that CF is quite good at this. > > Sure, there are many ways to look at this topic, and it would be easy > > to trot out how much more VS provides to a .Net developer than > > CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF Studio, but one may argue that CFML's very > > ease of use and high-level nature allows folks to develop quickly even > without a fully-evolved IDE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is lack of community spirit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, your points are well taken, but I don't think most would agree > > > that > > they equate to your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and > > yes, > > recently) been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why > > some may feel that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have > > to recognize the position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) > > that we are doing the same. This discussion is walking a fine line > > between a circle jerk and a bar fight, and we need to avoid it > > degrading into either. Again, I'm not looking to pick a fight. Just > offering some contrary thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > /charlie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > On > > Behalf Of Scott Barnes > > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:42 PM > > > > > > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com > > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! > > > not > > FUD from them too? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured > > > yearly on > > their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did > > an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the > > independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get > > it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make > > > is whom > > are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what > > recognition do they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry > > Beattie comes to mind a lot when I think of this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my > > boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this > > one topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice to say the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the > > ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in > > other languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are > > mentoring the Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them? > > > > > > . There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be > > billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst > > other means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with > > last year, we made it scale and that product was zero install in January > last year. > > > > > > . There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand > and > i > > encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There > > is a large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being > > 100% loyal to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities > > whom may not like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, > > they will respect you as professional for looking at theres. Diversity > > is key, as it forms relationship and fosters various adoption > > lifecyles that benefit all. If you're not getting the numbers you need > > with a UG, look at merging or colloborating with others. People donate > > 1-2hrs of their personal time to attend these, make them feel its an > investment, not a chore. > > > > > > . The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last > 3-5 > > years. What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years. > > Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas > > "we're announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because > > they believed in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have > > countless more stories like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' > > technology weakness is tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but > > ask yourself a simple question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in > > 3-5 years? not just the server itself but the surrounding ecosystem. > > > > > > . There is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is > > something more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't > > produce a solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh > > up what you're doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your > > horizons and understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about > > quantity. Ruby On Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man > > in the wrong hands, and it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, > > but the reason why it had a nice amount of run on the boards was > > simply because it empowered engineers to pump out solutions rapidly. > > > > > > . There is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value > does > > one get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a > > video or presentation they can view online anyway then what value are > > you adding to peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what > > value are they offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is > > debating on CFAussie really the right place to do so? and so on... > > where is your aggregation point for the CF virgin out there? how does > > one sound a bell and all flock to a single rally point and what is that > rally point? > > > > > > > > > CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument > here. > > Assume for this exercise it is, say there entire system is about to > > crumble and FUD is based of truth. Now what would you do differently > > to change that and how would you execute it? I say this as we assume > > .NET is losing numbers daily and we expect it to grow by 20% each year > > and that's what we do, we work hard to make it grow year on year. We > > never relax as being successful is really easy, staying successful, now > that is truly an art. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I joined the CF Community many years ago, > > > CFUG.org.au<http://cfug.org.au/>for one > > > was my > > entrance, the people I meet throughout my career have been remarkable > > and have been close friends. I have a lot of good and bad stories to > > tell around this language and I'll be honest, it's something I hope to > > instill into the Silverlight/WPF community world-wide going forward. I > > understood what makes a technology community great, and it wasn't > > brand worship or individuals within Macromedia/Adobe we should > > worship, it was more the people around the brand/company. Folks you > > looked up to and respected because they knew xyz feature better than > > any and would drop what they were doing to educate you on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is there is a lot of weaknesses in > > Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot jobs for CF is one thing, seeing > > a lot of the same jobs a month later is equally as bad as not seeing > > jobs for Coldfusion. There's a distinction in quality vs quantity there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. 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