Hi Scott, I think you may have your threads crossed. Last time I checked, I was the one making the case for cf devers to cross polinate into other languages because I couldn't find anyone to support CF apps that come in. I think you are aiming at Charlie, the other CH-name-starting-dude. I dont' know half of what you're talking about, but it sounds technical enough where I am wanting to take credit 'cause it sounds like technical. I only know projects in, resources to manage, work out, and making the fit in between. I are manager now, I are not programmer.
But if you want, I'll have a piece of you on Donky Kong. You name the place, I'll bring the mame. Chad who gets his behind kicked on the level with the bouncy spring things On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > *cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad, it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh. > > > Adobe CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand more > benefits in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of difference in > our offering, now what does that have to do with the current thread. Simply > that the existing model could be improved better, i won't stipulate exactly > how as that's obviously not my job. What I am doing is trying to tease out > some folks within the community whom are wanting change, to start thinking > about the program, looking at what Microsoft MVP offers and even evolve it > further or use it as a benchmark on what not to do, either way, start the > dialogue.. > > I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the yearly > membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it. Being recognised > as a community leader is and should be a big deal, as these are the > rockstars of your community. If you simply casually throw it out there to > random names that have no story attached to them, or no visual clear > definitive way to articulate whom they are and what they did to arrive at > such point, then how can others look to getting insight into the value being > offered by the program in question. > > Example: Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the world, > being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit. In this summit they > will have access to various Product Teams and folks from various levels. > They'll get to ask the hard questions and get the hard answers, which they > then take back to their respective regions and distill into what there peers > have asked them to find out and so on. They are the true backbone of a > community, the connectors between Corporate and Community as they can/have > one on hand praised us but then immediately backhand us for not doing our > jobs. Product Teams listen and do what they can so next year at the next > Summit, the beatings won't continue.. > > Benefit Realisation. > > Now Chad, I like you sport, but you've got to be kidding if you assume I > don't follow what Adobe does across the board. CF8 vs CF9 is not as > important as where is Adobe taking its product range? More to the point, > early this week they announced a bit of an executive overall, now what > impact will this have and do you fully comprehend what it means for them to > have David Mendels out of the picture? (could be nothing, could be > something). Point is, where is this ship sailing towards and which > direction. Adobe have a lot of fires on many fronts they are putting out > piece by piece. Consolidation of products is obvious and a platform, true > platform this time round is likely to happen, the question remains however > how does Coldfusion play a role in this puzzle. FYI, I follow CF8 closely > as well as CF9. > > > I'll leave the rapid prototyping alone as that could strike a bar fight, as > there's some basic truths in this conversation that would be the same as > waving a red flag in front of a room of bulls.. suffice to say, make note i > used the reference to Ruby on Rails and not ASP.NET, but i could include > that as well. In fact play it safe, lets strike that remark from the record > shall we :) > > Rather then debate blow for blow on my point, i stand by my point's and i > put it to you to prove me wrong. In fact, prove them all wrong :) as if > there is a problem here, you've just fixed them in one email chad, yet if > there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire proposition of > Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong. The point is, CF community used to be > more vibrant than it is today, and not much in the technology or ownership > has changed. In fact I'd say Adobe's ownership of Coldfusion has given it a > boost over Macromedia, but overall the bodies and minds haven't changed.. so > what has? > FUD confuses me at times? like what's the agenda? disrupt the Adobe scene so > it's chaos and you all turn on the company with pitchforks? I mean I could > do that and there are techniques to do that, but i'd firstly do it via > layers of abstraction as the key to doing so is to ensure you're not > directly linked to the riot in question - or it could be a guy, on a > Saturday assessing the thread and whines about how recruitment companies > have got it all wrong, how these little press releases all have it wrong, > again after again, after again. Hell, you can check out Netcraft reports and > argue they have it all wrong to ...sure i can appreciate it all, but i've > layed out my opinion, some weak data points in the armour of that which is > Coldfusion and it's entirely up to you to digest them, reject them or use > them. > > Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative langaues > today than Coldfusion. Why, are they all morons? what elements of success > can you bring back to the able if you were to explore outside the CF bubble? > (community, features, lighthouse wins). > > FYI, i recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point > > In my experience, FUD is 3 letters layed down on the table, when one can't > find reasons why to like or dislike something. > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM, charlie arehart > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm really not looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the points > Scott made, yet I found quite a few that I'd contend: > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly > on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year > > > > > because you did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that > the independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically > > > > > mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea. > > > > > > > > That's the way the Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for life". > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what > recognition do they get and above all what level of support? > > > > > > > > Adobe CEs do get recognition, both by their acceptance into the program, > and promotion of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for > levels of support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and these > benefits come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have teamed with Adobe to > offer them things, both that make them more capable and that simply give > them a form of repayment for their efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the server > itself but the surrounding ecosystem. > > > > > > > > Scott, here's where we have to wonder how much you're still following CF > closely. CF8 has been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are already > underway. As for the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it clear that CF > is at a big part of the integration story for Flex, Blaze, AIR, and other > leading technologies. Do those get the majority of play? Sure. Is CF always > mentioned? No, not for now. They also want to reach developers using other > backends, but CF is always going to be at the center of easy integration > from those client apps to the back end. > > > > > > > > > > > There is lack of rapid prototyping. > > > > > > > > Um, really? I guess it depends on what one considers to be rapid > prototyping, but I think many would say that CF is quite good at this. Sure, > there are many ways to look at this topic, and it would be easy to trot out > how much more VS provides to a .Net developer than CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF > Studio, but one may argue that CFML's very ease of use and high-level nature > allows folks to develop quickly even without a fully-evolved IDE. > > > > > > > > > > > There is lack of community spirit. > > > > > > > > Well, your points are well taken, but I don't think most would agree that > they equate to your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and yes, > recently) been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why some may > feel that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have to recognize the > position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) that we are doing the > same. This discussion is walking a fine line between a circle jerk and a bar > fight, and we need to avoid it degrading into either. Again, I'm not looking > to pick a fight. Just offering some contrary thought. > > > > > > > > /charlie > > > > > > > > > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Scott Barnes > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:42 PM > > > > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not > FUD from them too? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on > their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an > outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body > agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you > decide to get bored with the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom > are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do > they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to > mind a lot when I think of this). > > > > > > > > > > > > I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my > boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one > topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice to say the following: > > > > > > > > > > · There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the > ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other > languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the > Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them? > > > > · There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be > billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other > means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we > made it scale and that product was zero install in January last year. > > > > · There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i > encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a > large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% loyal > to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not > like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will respect you > as professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as it forms > relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that benefit all. If > you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look at merging or > colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their personal time to > attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore. > > > > · The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5 > years. What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years. > Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're > announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they believed > in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless more stories > like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology weakness is > tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask yourself a simple > question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the > server itself but the surrounding ecosystem. > > > > · There is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is > something more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't > produce a solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up > what you're doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons > and understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity. Ruby > On Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong hands, > and it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, but the reason why it had > a nice amount of run on the boards was simply because it empowered engineers > to pump out solutions rapidly. > > > > · There is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value does > one get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a video or > presentation they can view online anyway then what value are you adding to > peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what value are they > offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is debating on CFAussie really > the right place to do so? and so on... where is your aggregation point for > the CF virgin out there? how does one sound a bell and all flock to a single > rally point and what is that rally point? > > > > > > CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument here. > Assume for this exercise it is, say there entire system is about to crumble > and FUD is based of truth. Now what would you do differently to change that > and how would you execute it? I say this as we assume .NET is losing numbers > daily and we expect it to grow by 20% each year and that's what we do, we > work hard to make it grow year on year. We never relax as being successful > is really easy, staying successful, now that is truly an art. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I joined the CF Community many years ago, CFUG.org.au for one was my > entrance, the people I meet throughout my career have been remarkable and > have been close friends. I have a lot of good and bad stories to tell around > this language and I'll be honest, it's something I hope to instill into the > Silverlight/WPF community world-wide going forward. I understood what makes > a technology community great, and it wasn't brand worship or individuals > within Macromedia/Adobe we should worship, it was more the people around the > brand/company. Folks you looked up to and respected because they knew xyz > feature better than any and would drop what they were doing to educate you > on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is there is a lot of weaknesses in > Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot jobs for CF is one thing, seeing a lot > of the same jobs a month later is equally as bad as not seeing jobs for > Coldfusion. There's a distinction in quality vs quantity there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
