I agree that we must keep and improve the existing labs. There is too much good and criitical material there. But if we have a better infrastructure for new labs then the old will gradually move to it.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Björn Helgason <[email protected]> wrote: > I do like the labs as is so using spx is a good idea but not change the > labs that are now. > > Make new tutorial system using new features. > > Not eliminate existing demos and labs. > > I can see integrated video, helps, labs, demos, tutorials and have > different versions for beginners and advanced but in a new added system. > > The existing labs and demos are great as is so do not change those at least > not until something better is in place. > On 27 May 2014 14:14, "Eric Iverson" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> The labs were great in their time. Rather than recreate that wheel it >> might be worthwhile to step back and look at the issues in current >> light. >> >> I think the labs structure is too restricted. I strongly favor the JHS >> spx approach that lets you treat any script (or any text file) as a >> lab. I think this is a compelling argument. Right now the spx facility >> is very simple but could be easily improved. Effort here might be >> better than on the old lab aurthor system. >> >> The other part of the solution (that would fit hand in glove with >> enhanced spx) is to take advantage of the fact the scripts are loaded >> (and spx managed) with J code. This means it is easy to make the >> source script much richer. I think html with custom tags is the way to >> go to have a single script that can be used to load an applicaton, run >> an spx lab, and to have a literate programming display. Lots of hand >> waving here, but a script that started with an <html> tag could be >> handled specially by various programs. Load would strip out all lines >> not in <code-load) tags. spx could have special treatment of other >> tags. Publish could do similar processing. And just showing the script >> in a browser would be useful. >> >> Lots of handwaving above, but I think this is the way to go. One nice >> thing is that it could be done in small steps with immediate benefits. >> For example the step to have load just handle the lines in <code-load> >> tags and to just treat the script as html for display would provide >> quite a few features. In fact, it might be best to just have html >> scripts that can be handled by load and spx. Maybe foo.ijs.html >> scripts. >> >> Note that spx is not specific to JHS. It works reasonably well in Jqt >> or Jconsole and could the rough edges in those environments can easily >> be fixed with a bit of J programming. The new release of Jd uses spx >> and works in all front ends. >> >> Potential lab authors are far better off to learn some html than a J >> specific lab authoring facility. >> >> Any interest in making the general issue of labs/literate >> programming/publishing the topic of a workshop at the conference in >> July? >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 10:23 PM, robert therriault >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Well, I am looking at it and I will keep everyone posted if I make any >> progress, but I really won't feel bad if someone else wanted to take it on >> (or even better join in). >> > >> > I am starting with the JHS system using Safari as my browser. Even >> though the lab .ijt files are text files which any version of J would read, >> some of the instructions to initiate events such as running video are >> dependent on the J environment being used, so that generalization across >> the different environments may be end up being a challenge. >> > >> > The first challenge is to get people to think that it is not a bad idea. >> :-) >> > >> > Cheers, bob >> > >> > On May 26, 2014, at 7:05 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> Does that mean you are volunteering to do the update? >> >> >> >> ;) >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Raul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 8:56 PM, robert therriault < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey Raul, >> >>> >> >>> Developing a tool that can be used to create labs as they are imagined >> now >> >>> is mostly an update from the previous lab author, so most of the heavy >> >>> lifting has been done. The next level is to come up with what labs >> might >> >>> become; incorporating a number of communications methods that html5 >> makes >> >>> available with an interface that reduces the overhead to lab creation. >> I >> >>> would like to say it is the interface design that I find most >> difficult, >> >>> but really the biggest challenge is personal time management. :-) >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, bob >> >>> >> >>> On May 26, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Keep in mind that my "don't like video" is limited - I *would* like it >> >>>> under a variety of circumstances and I would not hesitate to >> recommend it >> >>>> for some purposes. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not trying to say it's bad or anything. But I guess I do avoid it >> in >> >>>> some contexts. >> >>>> >> >>>> Meanwhile, it can't be that hard to document the data format for labs. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks, >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Raul >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 4:36 PM, robert therriault < >> >>> [email protected]>wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hey Raul, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 1) One of the advantages of scripted video is that there is a written >> >>>>> artefact that could be included for search purposes. Similar to the >> way >> >>>>> that SVG includes its text as searchable content as opposed to >> bitmaps >> >>> of >> >>>>> words on canvas. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 2) This is a little trickier because it implicitly dives through the >> >>>>> levels that we interact with video. The pixelmator video example was >> one >> >>>>> that I was looking at as a viewer (because it is pretty) and as a >> >>> content >> >>>>> creator (by the way it conveyed information so efficiently). The >> level >> >>> you >> >>>>> are talking about is the level of the tool to create such a video or >> >>> image. >> >>>>> The reason that J doesn't have such a tool is probably because this >> >>> level >> >>>>> of UI is really difficult to get right and even when you do, the >> users >> >>> may >> >>>>> turn on you, such as when Apple introduced the new version of Final >> Cut >> >>>>> Pro. Also, there may not be reasons for J to manipulate video in this >> >>> way >> >>>>> when there are other tools already available, but you already >> referred >> >>> to >> >>>>> this when you talked of bringing other tools such as Blender. >> >>> Currently, I >> >>>>> am taking a hard look at the labs feature in J to provide this type >> of >> >>>>> glue. Amazingly, we lack a creation tool for labs in the newer >> versions >> >>> of >> >>>>> J and if there were a tool that would be >> >>>>> worth building, I think that would be it. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 3) In signing off (and even though you don't like video) I just >> opened a >> >>>>> link to this orientation/welcoming tutorial produced by >> >>> processing.orgthat also has content that involves the visual aspects >> and >> >>> power of >> >>>>> computer programming. Might be worth a look. >> >>> http://hello.processing.org/ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Cheers, bob >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On May 26, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> I guess I have two thoughts looking at that: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> (1) I personally prefer reading over video. Video is really hard to >> >>> find >> >>>>>> using search, and it's slow to watch. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> (2) Why don't I know how to generate a UI like that, using J? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Of course anything worth doing takes time, and I have to allow for >> >>> that. >> >>>>>> But video is particularly frustrating for me, also because I don't >> know >> >>>>> how >> >>>>>> to manipulate the raw underlying data in J. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Raul >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 1:23 PM, robert therriault < >> >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Thanks Raul, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Another (albeit market driven) approach is the short video >> tutorial to >> >>>>>>> describe use of a specific tooll. These short tutorials for the >> use of >> >>>>>>> pixelmator software are good because they have actually provided >> very >> >>>>>>> precise instruction on use of a tool in about a minute. The amount >> of >> >>>>> time >> >>>>>>> required to create these tutorials is even more than writing, as it >> >>>>>>> includes video production, but the result is a just in time >> tutorial >> >>>>> that >> >>>>>>> does not feel too pedantic. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://www.pixelmator.com/tutorials/featured/transform-tool/ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Cheers, bob >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On May 26, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Writing decent tutorial documentation can be hard. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> So here's an example of how one guy who has written a fair amount >> of >> >>>>>>>> documentation has approached things: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.xess.com/static/media/appnotes/FpgasNowWhatBook.pdf >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Personally, I'm not all that fond of pdf - I personally prefer >> >>> working >> >>>>>>> more >> >>>>>>>> directly with the underlying medium. But everybody has to make >> their >> >>>>> own >> >>>>>>>> choices. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>> Raul >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>>> For information about J forums see >> >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> For information about J forums see >> >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>> >> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
