Perhaps worth noting that the oxford english definition of operator (in the context of mathematics) makes no mention of "data":
"A symbol or function denoting an operation (e.g. ×, +)." That's somewhat characteristic of word meaning in common use - it's not very restrictive. The notion that there is a specific procedure that's the definition of a word is somewhat unique to the field of computing. It's not how most people think (though you do tend to pick up this notion after you've created enough definitions for computers - but even here you have to have some tolerance for different systems using different definitions). I hope this helps, -- Raul On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 10:32 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote: > So, what is the purpose of this discussion? Is it to find a better way to > describe J? If so, then I suspect the formal definitions for "function" and > "operator" will confuse and turn off both non-programmers and programmers. > They are so formal and contradictory to the point of distracting from the > original purpose. > > And one thing not addressed yet. What are "differentiation" and > "integration"? They don't fit the description of "operators" or "functions" > so far in this discussion. They are a unique concept. They create new > functions. They do not manipulate data. > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:18 AM, Dabrowski, Andrew John <dabro...@indiana.edu >> wrote: > >> You mean "operations"? >> >> On 03/08/2018 08:56 AM, Don Guinn wrote: >> >> Yet + and - are called "operators" is school. Yet they conform exactly to >> the definition of a "function". >> >> So, to the general public, what is an "operator"? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>< >> mailto:rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> You had different teachers than I had. >> >> I remember being taught the definition of function in grade school, >> again in high school, and again in college. The definitions weren't >> the same but they tied together. >> >> A key concept has been that a function has a single value for any >> single argument. y equals one minus x squared is a function (graph of >> a parabola). y squared equals one minus x squared (graph of a circle) >> is not a function. >> >> That term got borrowed for programming (naming things is hard), but >> functions in programming languages have only a loose relationship to >> the earlier concepts. >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:50 PM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com><mailto:do >> ngu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> When in grade school they called things like + and - "operators". But >> >> >> they >> >> >> never defined it. Then in trig thay had "functions", but they never >> >> >> defined >> >> >> what functions were either. Then came calculus. Differentiating and >> integrating were never given a group name or general classification. I >> think teachers thought they were functions. But obviously quite different >> from things like sin and cos. I searched several math school books >> >> >> looking >> >> >> for definitions. Never found any. They just started using the terms >> >> >> without >> >> >> definition. >> >> I asked several people the difference between function and operator and >> >> >> got >> >> >> nonsense answers. So for the fun of it, I googled it. Overwhelmed. The >> >> >> only >> >> >> definitions that make sense are those of calling things as J did like +, >> >> >> -, >> >> >> sin and cos "verbs" and differentials and integration "modifiers". >> >> >> Because >> >> >> differentials and integrals return "functions". Or in J terminology, >> "verbs". >> >> These things are concepts. I think I have an understanding of the >> >> >> concepts, >> >> >> but as to what to call them. Who knows? The thing is that we need to try >> many ways to describe them until one of them sticks. Maybe one of the >> descriptions will work with students or other people. But I suspect that >> few people realize that things like differentiation is really different >> from + and sin. >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com><mailto: >> earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Too right, Devon. >> >> And have you explored the unicode situation with minus? Not to mention >> >> >> pi >> >> >> and mu. >> >> If programmers coded like they talk and write, planes would be dropping >> >> >> on >> >> >> our heads from all over the sky. >> >> I knew folk who'd never read a manual or an article about a novel >> >> >> language. >> >> >> And they didn't read comments in code. >> Only the code – and then they'd try out variants, to see what worked and >> what didn't. >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:59 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com >> ><mailto:devon...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I did once ask a fellow, knowledgable programmer if the distinction >> >> >> between >> >> >> function and operator in conventional languages in fact meant "with >> >> >> which >> >> >> alphabet do you spell it?" >> If it's a plain old ASCII name, like "plus", it's a function; a symbol >> >> >> like >> >> >> "+" is an operator, even if both tokens behave exactly the same. >> Ultimately not a particularly illuminating distinction. >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com><mailto: >> earthspo...@gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> it does not match my understanding of how standards bodies work >> >> >> >> However they work, they don't seem to produce a leading answer to a >> >> >> leading >> >> >> question. >> >> Before posting my appeal, I googled variants of "ISO computer >> >> >> terminology". >> >> >> I got the impression there were over 30 ISO committees dealing with >> >> >> aspects >> >> >> of this topic, including the vexed one of translating computer >> >> >> manuals. I >> >> >> gave up and asked this forum if anyone could recommend the leading >> >> >> (ISO) >> >> >> source of common terms, like: platform, program, etc. (…hey! – I've >> >> >> just >> >> >> reduxed my original post.) >> >> It seems nobody can. I might as well have asked the Freemasons their >> meaning of "secret society". >> >> >> >> that does not match my understanding of how language use works >> >> >> >> What hope is there of dialog with someone if you don't agree on >> >> >> basic >> >> >> terms? >> That's my understanding of how language use works. Or doesn't. >> >> Yet here I am, setting out (…yet again) to talk to non-J initiates >> >> >> about >> >> >> J >> >> >> – and I want to use words which I know they'll understand, like: >> >> >> variable, >> >> >> constant, function – and I want to avoid words like noun, verb, >> >> >> pronoun, >> >> >> proverb – because that's all J mystery jargon. >> >> Don't I need a touchstone of definitions my reader and I will agree >> >> >> on? >> >> >> >> To-date I've come up with these candidates: >> (a) The Oxford Dictionary (…nowadays better than I expected it to >> >> >> be, >> >> >> going by past experience) >> (b) The following site: http://techterms.com >> …which is cool. Just what I was looking for. But lacks the >> >> >> authority of >> >> >> an >> >> >> ISO standard. >> >> Also (…oh no!) I look up a word like: Constant –and I don't agree >> >> >> with >> >> >> what >> >> >> it says… >> https://techterms.com/definition/constant >> In the final para it seems to be describing #define, not: const (…if >> >> >> you >> >> >> know any C/C++). >> Plus no mention of IMHO the chief role of a "constant": to behave >> programatically like a variable but preclude reassignment. >> Thus scotching the perennial C/C++ bug: >> if (myconst = x) { … } >> >> Also, on the home page, "Today's Quiz Question" is garbled… not a >> >> >> good >> >> >> sign >> >> >> for something purporting to be authoritative. >> >> Can anyone do better? >> >> …there, now I've described exactly what I'm looking for. >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>< >> mailto:rauldmil...@gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I do not think that "common usage" depends on ISO standards. >> >> Or, at least, that does not match my understanding of how language >> >> >> use >> >> >> works (and, for that matter, it does not match my understanding of >> >> >> how >> >> >> standards bodies work). >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com<mailto: >> earthspo...@gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, >> >> >> program, >> >> >> etc", >> >> >> i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers. >> >> Especially not J-ers! >> >> I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford Dictionary >> >> >> of >> >> >> English >> >> >> (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has >> >> >> authoritative >> >> >> but >> >> >> straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for >> >> >> all >> >> >> I've >> >> >> tried >> >> >> . >> >> But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this >> >> >> list >> >> >> use, >> >> >> or >> >> >> some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean that >> >> >> nobody >> >> >> has >> >> >> ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT professionals >> >> >> doesn't >> >> >> extend to terminology, it seems. >> >> Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and >> >> >> that >> >> >> was >> >> >> decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of >> >> >> translating >> >> >> manuals. >> >> >> Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in my >> >> >> day. >> >> >> An >> >> >> Arab once told me he always used the English manual because he >> >> >> couldn't >> >> >> make head or tail of the Arabic one. >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com<mailto:jo >> ebog...@gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I went back and looked at some of the existing material >> >> This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples: >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm >> >> This text seems devoid of too many terms: >> http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf >> >> Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so both >> >> >> may >> >> >> still >> >> >> need to be unpacked more >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark < >> >> >> earthspo...@gmail.com<mailto:earthspo...@gmail.com>> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" text >> >> >> for J >> >> >> without >> >> >> reference to a single accepted source of definitions like: >> >> >> platform, >> >> >> program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, >> >> >> string, >> >> >> character, number … >> >> Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in >> >> >> English)? >> >> >> >> If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is >> >> >> there >> >> >> one >> >> >> that >> >> >> stands out for you? >> >> I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear >> >> >> published >> >> >> free >> >> >> authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, please >> >> >> don't >> >> >> offer >> >> >> your own definitions of the above terms here (although of >> >> >> course >> >> >> I'd >> >> >> be >> >> >> frightfully interested to hear them one day.) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Devon McCormick, CFA >> >> Quantitative Consultant >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
