That's why most people give up on chatting to anyone outside their own little circle. It's one response to the challenge.
And why I always felt international mathematics conferences were a waste of time (unless you were the invited speaker at a plenary session). There was nobody you could talk to. On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:50 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote: > When in grade school they called things like + and - "operators". But they > never defined it. Then in trig thay had "functions", but they never defined > what functions were either. Then came calculus. Differentiating and > integrating were never given a group name or general classification. I > think teachers thought they were functions. But obviously quite different > from things like sin and cos. I searched several math school books looking > for definitions. Never found any. They just started using the terms without > definition. > > I asked several people the difference between function and operator and got > nonsense answers. So for the fun of it, I googled it. Overwhelmed. The only > definitions that make sense are those of calling things as J did like +, -, > sin and cos "verbs" and differentials and integration "modifiers". Because > differentials and integrals return "functions". Or in J terminology, > "verbs". > > These things are concepts. I think I have an understanding of the concepts, > but as to what to call them. Who knows? The thing is that we need to try > many ways to describe them until one of them sticks. Maybe one of the > descriptions will work with students or other people. But I suspect that > few people realize that things like differentiation is really different > from + and sin. > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Too right, Devon. > > > > And have you explored the unicode situation with minus? Not to mention pi > > and mu. > > > > If programmers coded like they talk and write, planes would be dropping > on > > our heads from all over the sky. > > > > I knew folk who'd never read a manual or an article about a novel > language. > > And they didn't read comments in code. > > Only the code – and then they'd try out variants, to see what worked and > > what didn't. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:59 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > I did once ask a fellow, knowledgable programmer if the distinction > > between > > > function and operator in conventional languages in fact meant "with > which > > > alphabet do you spell it?" > > > If it's a plain old ASCII name, like "plus", it's a function; a symbol > > like > > > "+" is an operator, even if both tokens behave exactly the same. > > > Ultimately not a particularly illuminating distinction. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > it does not match my understanding of how standards bodies work > > > > > > > > However they work, they don't seem to produce a leading answer to a > > > leading > > > > question. > > > > > > > > Before posting my appeal, I googled variants of "ISO computer > > > terminology". > > > > I got the impression there were over 30 ISO committees dealing with > > > aspects > > > > of this topic, including the vexed one of translating computer > > manuals. I > > > > gave up and asked this forum if anyone could recommend the leading > > (ISO) > > > > source of common terms, like: platform, program, etc. (…hey! – I've > > just > > > > reduxed my original post.) > > > > > > > > It seems nobody can. I might as well have asked the Freemasons their > > > > meaning of "secret society". > > > > > > > > > that does not match my understanding of how language use works > > > > > > > > What hope is there of dialog with someone if you don't agree on basic > > > > terms? > > > > That's my understanding of how language use works. Or doesn't. > > > > > > > > Yet here I am, setting out (…yet again) to talk to non-J initiates > > about > > > J > > > > – and I want to use words which I know they'll understand, like: > > > variable, > > > > constant, function – and I want to avoid words like noun, verb, > > pronoun, > > > > proverb – because that's all J mystery jargon. > > > > > > > > Don't I need a touchstone of definitions my reader and I will agree > on? > > > > > > > > To-date I've come up with these candidates: > > > > (a) The Oxford Dictionary (…nowadays better than I expected it to > be, > > > > going by past experience) > > > > (b) The following site: http://techterms.com > > > > …which is cool. Just what I was looking for. But lacks the authority > of > > > an > > > > ISO standard. > > > > > > > > Also (…oh no!) I look up a word like: Constant –and I don't agree > with > > > what > > > > it says… > > > > https://techterms.com/definition/constant > > > > In the final para it seems to be describing #define, not: const (…if > > you > > > > know any C/C++). > > > > Plus no mention of IMHO the chief role of a "constant": to behave > > > > programatically like a variable but preclude reassignment. > > > > Thus scotching the perennial C/C++ bug: > > > > if (myconst = x) { … } > > > > > > > > Also, on the home page, "Today's Quiz Question" is garbled… not a > good > > > sign > > > > for something purporting to be authoritative. > > > > > > > > Can anyone do better? > > > > > > > > …there, now I've described exactly what I'm looking for. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I do not think that "common usage" depends on ISO standards. > > > > > > > > > > Or, at least, that does not match my understanding of how language > > use > > > > > works (and, for that matter, it does not match my understanding of > > how > > > > > standards bodies work). > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Raul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, > > program, > > > > > etc", > > > > > > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially not J-ers! > > > > > > > > > > > > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford Dictionary > of > > > > > English > > > > > > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has authoritative > > but > > > > > > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for all > > > I've > > > > > tried > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this > list > > > use, > > > > > or > > > > > > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean that > > > nobody > > > > > has > > > > > > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT professionals > > > doesn't > > > > > > extend to terminology, it seems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and > that > > > was > > > > > > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of translating > > > > > manuals. > > > > > > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in my > > day. > > > An > > > > > > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because he > > > couldn't > > > > > > make head or tail of the Arabic one. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I went back and looked at some of the existing material > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples: > > > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This text seems devoid of too many terms: > > > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so both > may > > > > still > > > > > >> need to be unpacked more > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark < > earthspo...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" text > > for J > > > > > >> without > > > > > >> > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like: > > > platform, > > > > > >> > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, > > string, > > > > > >> > character, number … > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in > > English)? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is > there > > > one > > > > > that > > > > > >> > stands out for you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear > > published > > > > > free > > > > > >> > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, please > > don't > > > > > offer > > > > > >> > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of > course > > > I'd > > > > > be > > > > > >> > frightfully interested to hear them one day.) > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > > > > > forums.htm > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > > > > forums.htm > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---------- > > > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > > > forums.htm > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > > forums.htm > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Devon McCormick, CFA > > > > > > Quantitative Consultant > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
