This is little better than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator_(computer_programming) .
Also, I can edit Wikipedia. On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:08 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/operator > > -- > Raul > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yet + and - are called "operators" is school. Yet they conform exactly to > > the definition of a "function". > > > > So, to the general public, what is an "operator"? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> You had different teachers than I had. > >> > >> I remember being taught the definition of function in grade school, > >> again in high school, and again in college. The definitions weren't > >> the same but they tied together. > >> > >> A key concept has been that a function has a single value for any > >> single argument. y equals one minus x squared is a function (graph of > >> a parabola). y squared equals one minus x squared (graph of a circle) > >> is not a function. > >> > >> That term got borrowed for programming (naming things is hard), but > >> functions in programming languages have only a loose relationship to > >> the earlier concepts. > >> > >> -- > >> Raul > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:50 PM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > When in grade school they called things like + and - "operators". But > >> they > >> > never defined it. Then in trig thay had "functions", but they never > >> defined > >> > what functions were either. Then came calculus. Differentiating and > >> > integrating were never given a group name or general classification. I > >> > think teachers thought they were functions. But obviously quite > different > >> > from things like sin and cos. I searched several math school books > >> looking > >> > for definitions. Never found any. They just started using the terms > >> without > >> > definition. > >> > > >> > I asked several people the difference between function and operator > and > >> got > >> > nonsense answers. So for the fun of it, I googled it. Overwhelmed. The > >> only > >> > definitions that make sense are those of calling things as J did like > +, > >> -, > >> > sin and cos "verbs" and differentials and integration "modifiers". > >> Because > >> > differentials and integrals return "functions". Or in J terminology, > >> > "verbs". > >> > > >> > These things are concepts. I think I have an understanding of the > >> concepts, > >> > but as to what to call them. Who knows? The thing is that we need to > try > >> > many ways to describe them until one of them sticks. Maybe one of the > >> > descriptions will work with students or other people. But I suspect > that > >> > few people realize that things like differentiation is really > different > >> > from + and sin. > >> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Too right, Devon. > >> >> > >> >> And have you explored the unicode situation with minus? Not to > mention > >> pi > >> >> and mu. > >> >> > >> >> If programmers coded like they talk and write, planes would be > dropping > >> on > >> >> our heads from all over the sky. > >> >> > >> >> I knew folk who'd never read a manual or an article about a novel > >> language. > >> >> And they didn't read comments in code. > >> >> Only the code – and then they'd try out variants, to see what worked > and > >> >> what didn't. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:59 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > I did once ask a fellow, knowledgable programmer if the distinction > >> >> between > >> >> > function and operator in conventional languages in fact meant "with > >> which > >> >> > alphabet do you spell it?" > >> >> > If it's a plain old ASCII name, like "plus", it's a function; a > symbol > >> >> like > >> >> > "+" is an operator, even if both tokens behave exactly the same. > >> >> > Ultimately not a particularly illuminating distinction. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > > it does not match my understanding of how standards bodies > work > >> >> > > > >> >> > > However they work, they don't seem to produce a leading answer > to a > >> >> > leading > >> >> > > question. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Before posting my appeal, I googled variants of "ISO computer > >> >> > terminology". > >> >> > > I got the impression there were over 30 ISO committees dealing > with > >> >> > aspects > >> >> > > of this topic, including the vexed one of translating computer > >> >> manuals. I > >> >> > > gave up and asked this forum if anyone could recommend the > leading > >> >> (ISO) > >> >> > > source of common terms, like: platform, program, etc. (…hey! – > I've > >> >> just > >> >> > > reduxed my original post.) > >> >> > > > >> >> > > It seems nobody can. I might as well have asked the Freemasons > their > >> >> > > meaning of "secret society". > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > that does not match my understanding of how language use works > >> >> > > > >> >> > > What hope is there of dialog with someone if you don't agree on > >> basic > >> >> > > terms? > >> >> > > That's my understanding of how language use works. Or doesn't. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Yet here I am, setting out (…yet again) to talk to non-J > initiates > >> >> about > >> >> > J > >> >> > > – and I want to use words which I know they'll understand, like: > >> >> > variable, > >> >> > > constant, function – and I want to avoid words like noun, verb, > >> >> pronoun, > >> >> > > proverb – because that's all J mystery jargon. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Don't I need a touchstone of definitions my reader and I will > agree > >> on? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > To-date I've come up with these candidates: > >> >> > > (a) The Oxford Dictionary (…nowadays better than I expected it > to > >> be, > >> >> > > going by past experience) > >> >> > > (b) The following site: http://techterms.com > >> >> > > …which is cool. Just what I was looking for. But lacks the > >> authority of > >> >> > an > >> >> > > ISO standard. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Also (…oh no!) I look up a word like: Constant –and I don't agree > >> with > >> >> > what > >> >> > > it says… > >> >> > > https://techterms.com/definition/constant > >> >> > > In the final para it seems to be describing #define, not: const > (…if > >> >> you > >> >> > > know any C/C++). > >> >> > > Plus no mention of IMHO the chief role of a "constant": to behave > >> >> > > programatically like a variable but preclude reassignment. > >> >> > > Thus scotching the perennial C/C++ bug: > >> >> > > if (myconst = x) { … } > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Also, on the home page, "Today's Quiz Question" is garbled… not a > >> good > >> >> > sign > >> >> > > for something purporting to be authoritative. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Can anyone do better? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > …there, now I've described exactly what I'm looking for. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Raul Miller < > rauldmil...@gmail.com> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I do not think that "common usage" depends on ISO standards. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Or, at least, that does not match my understanding of how > language > >> >> use > >> >> > > > works (and, for that matter, it does not match my > understanding of > >> >> how > >> >> > > > standards bodies work). > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Thanks, > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > -- > >> >> > > > Raul > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark < > earthspo...@gmail.com > >> > > >> >> > > wrote: > >> >> > > > > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, > >> >> program, > >> >> > > > etc", > >> >> > > > > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Especially not J-ers! > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford > Dictionary > >> of > >> >> > > > English > >> >> > > > > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has > >> authoritative > >> >> but > >> >> > > > > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for > >> all > >> >> > I've > >> >> > > > tried > >> >> > > > > . > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this > >> list > >> >> > use, > >> >> > > > or > >> >> > > > > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean > that > >> >> > nobody > >> >> > > > has > >> >> > > > > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT > professionals > >> >> > doesn't > >> >> > > > > extend to terminology, it seems. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and > >> that > >> >> > was > >> >> > > > > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of > >> translating > >> >> > > > manuals. > >> >> > > > > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in > my > >> >> day. > >> >> > An > >> >> > > > > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because > he > >> >> > couldn't > >> >> > > > > make head or tail of the Arabic one. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner < > joebog...@gmail.com > >> > > >> >> > > wrote: > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> I went back and looked at some of the existing material > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples: > >> >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> This text seems devoid of too many terms: > >> >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so > both > >> may > >> >> > > still > >> >> > > > >> need to be unpacked more > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark < > >> earthspo...@gmail.com> > >> >> > > > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" > text > >> >> for J > >> >> > > > >> without > >> >> > > > >> > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like: > >> >> > platform, > >> >> > > > >> > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, > >> >> string, > >> >> > > > >> > character, number … > >> >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > >> > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in > >> >> English)? > >> >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > >> > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is > >> there > >> >> > one > >> >> > > > that > >> >> > > > >> > stands out for you? > >> >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > >> > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear > >> >> published > >> >> > > > free > >> >> > > > >> > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, > please > >> >> don't > >> >> > > > offer > >> >> > > > >> > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of > >> course > >> >> > I'd > >> >> > > > be > >> >> > > > >> > frightfully interested to hear them one day.) > >> >> > > > >> > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > >> >> > > > ---------- > >> >> > > > >> > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> >> > > > forums.htm > >> >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > >> >> > > ---------- > >> >> > > > >> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> >> > > forums.htm > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > ---------- > >> >> > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> >> > forums.htm > >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> ---------- > >> >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> >> forums.htm > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ---------- > >> >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> forums.htm > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > > >> >> > Devon McCormick, CFA > >> >> > > >> >> > Quantitative Consultant > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ---------- > >> >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> forums.htm > >> >> > > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Devon McCormick, CFA Quantitative Consultant ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
