Suze, this was an interesting point that you brought up. Originally, we offered a money back guarantee on the puppy if it was diagnosed with MVD or HD within the first two years. After discussing that with some pet people, they pointed out that having to return the puppy is not an option, so we changed our contract to read that if the pup is dx with HD or MVD within one year, they get all of the purchase price back to apply to medical expenses. Within 2 years, they get 50% of their money to apply to medical expenses. And, in every situation, they have the option of returning the puppy or keeping it. Myra Savant
>From: "Susan A. Schlenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] International & Experience >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:57:24 -0500 > >Hi, Anne, > I don't see the contradiction in my statements. The first >statement >says that the immediate progeny of tested individuals may be inferred by >buyers to be "healthier, safer and live longer" and that that isn't >(necessarily) true. The second statement says that we (or I) am testing >for long term improvment and not for the buying public. > In no place did I say that I don't tell people that I do testing, >in >fact I said my results are offered to anyone who asks whether or not >they are buying a dog from me. What I said is that I don't ADVERTISE >healthier puppies due to testing. I do just the opposite when I present >the test results and make sure that the buyer knows that this is for my >breeding program and will NOT guarantee that their pup won't get MVD, HD >or other genetic defects. It is also called out in my contract in very >specific language. > > >I am still haunted by the couple I saw this weekend who believe that >their three year old dog will somehow overcome early onset MVD because >her mother who got MVD at three was TESTED. Somewhere they got this >illusion; they were not stupid people. Anyone is capable of denial and >to deny that the pets we sell are still subject to early onset MVD is >the same sort of denial through which this couple is going. > >You say that you will take dogs back etc........do you think that they >want to return their three year old dog for a refund? That was the >rationale pet stores used years ago to "guarantee" pups were free from >HD. No one wanted to return the pup after a few days falling in love >with him/her. > >That is the crux of my problem with the "premier" site and other ads >like it. Yes, it is important to do testing for MVD and other genetic >problems; I, and LOTS of other breeders do it. NO, I don't think it >should be touted as unusual or special to so do. > >Suze > >Cavatibs wrote: > > > > Sue Schlenger says: > > > > > In my mind there is an inference for the buyer > > > that somehow the progeny will be healthier, safer and live >longer. We > > > all know that this isn't true. > > > > > and then Sue Schlenger says: > > > > > You are correct that many testing are doing so for the improvement of > > > the breed; not for the buying public. > > > > > So.....which statement do you believe - these are totally contradictory >statements. > > > > If you believe the first statement, then why are countries all over the >world > > offering more and more cardiology and other health clinics, not only for >Cavaliers, > > but for other breeds too -- all at the advice of cardiologists and >geneticists and > > due to demand from breeders? Why is the Veterinary Referral Center in >New Jersey > > opening its doors one evening every two months to screen dogs as a >service for > > breeders? Why are YOU fully health testing your dogs if you think it >will do no > > good? This makes no sense. > > > > If you believe in the second statement, then we are in agreement. > > > > Speaking for myself, I never have advertised that my dogs are >"healthier" than > > anyone elses. When mentioning health testing, I simply say that I >health test -- > > not that my dogs are healthier than other dogs - how would I know that? > > > > I don't "imply" that I do something different than any other breeders -- >I do do > > something different. We ALL do something different. I will promote my >beliefs in > > health testing and back up my statements if anyone asks. Those that do >not believe > > in health testing must promote THEIR beliefs. > > > > You say it is not as "fair" to tell puppy buyers about health testing as >it is to > > prepare them for the possibility of health problems -- is there any >reason why one > > can't do both? Would saying that the only real "guarantee" I can give >them is the > > guarantee that their dog WILL come down with heart disease at some point >in its > > life, direct and clear enough? If puppy buyers want a guarantee, I >tell them that > > they can write it, I'll sign it. I have had maybe two or three people >write a > > guarantee which I have signed. A responsible, ethical breeder will >replace dogs, > > refund money and pay for medical bills as the need arises. As someone >said on this > > list - S***T happens -- nothing is a guarantee but it doesn't take a >rocket > > scientist to figure out you have a much better chance of producing a >higher > > percentage of healthy dogs from a lineage of healthy >parents/grandparents etc than > > a lineage of unhealthy or unknown to be healthy parents/grandparents. > > > > Respectfully responded, > > > > Anne > > > > "Susan A. Schlenger" wrote: > > > > > Hello List, > > > I am emerging from the cotton wool in which I was buried these >last > > > days managing the marathon show weekends, kids, dogs, horses, etc. > > > Anne, I must respectfully disagree with your statement below. >While I > > > do fully test my dogs and their results are available to any who ask >for > > > whatever reason, I DO think that advertising that *my* dogs are > > > "healthier" implies that I'm doing something different than any other > > > breeder would/should do. You were at the CNE health clinic where I > > > assisted in the heart clinic; there were many people there to test >that > > > day, and a good many clear hearts (though I think fairly young dogs > > > under five). A good many of those breeders take for granted that it > > > should be done, but don't advertise that their pups are from "heart > > > cleared" parents. Why? In my mind there is an inference for the buyer > > > that somehow the progeny will be healthier, safer and live longer. We > > > all know that this isn't true. No matter how you inform your pet >buyers > > > that MVD and other genetic traits may crop up in your breeding program > > > and are polygenetic, you can TELL that the pet buyer feels some >measure > > > of false security in buying from "tested" parents. This is less fair > > > than preparing them for the possibility of ill dogs. I hear lots of > > > shouting that the pet buyers want reassurance and we can do something > > > about that. Of course.....we cannot really do a thing about it. Not > > > yet, at any rate. > > > I had many pet buyers stop to talk to me these last shows and >heard > > > LOTS of stories about what they are being told. It is amazing to me > > > that some think that MVD isn't a problem for "some" breeders, >especially > > > if they test their dogs. I even heard that from a couple today who >had > > > a Cavalier who came down with MVD at age three...the mother of their > > > Cavalier came down with MVD at the same age, but somehow they felt > > > reassured that even though their pet had MVD it would still live >longer > > > because even though the mother had MVD, the mother had been TESTED. > > > Wishful thinking is one thing; denial based on soft pedaling a problem > > > is another. > > > You are correct that many testing are doing so for the >improvement of > > > the breed; not for the buying public. In fact, I give NO health > > > guarantee when selling pets as I'm quite sure that my program will see > > > its share of MVD some day. I want any pet buyers to fully realize the > > > risk that they are taking in buying a Cavalier (or for that matter any > > > other breed). I want them to know that they will likely have vet bills > > > for something along the way, and I do not want to assume them. In the > > > many years that I have been buying horses and dogs I have always done >a > > > preliminary vet check prior to buying and assumed the risk of anything > > > that happens later on. That is not to say I won't be there if > > > something happens; surely I would help anyone in trouble (my dogs or > > > not) and take back any dog I bred. It is just a different >perspective. > > > We are using a new protocol that is not a proven program >which will > > > hopefully delay onset to some degree. I heartily advocate testing, >but > > > for the pet buyers on this list I advise them to realize that every > > > breed has genetic problems and the heart protocol is new, and will >only > > > tell the breeders that the parents don't have a murmur the day that >they > > > are tested. > > > Some thoughts on this incredibly emotional thread. > > > -no sane breeder wants health problems in their program > > > -this includes breeders in other countries > > > -advertising or bragging about a championship isn't always for >the > > > reason of promoting stud fees or selling show pups. I do not >advertise > > > my studs and they are not at public stud; nor am I advertising in any > > > magazine to sell show pups. I do, however, get great joy out of >success > > > in showing and it is FUN to share that. > > > -beating each other about the head and shoulders about testing >this and > > > that is not going to promote testing or sudden enlightenment. It IS > > > going to promote bad feelings between clubs, countries and breeders to > > > the extent that less will be shared and not more. > > > -people listen far more to whispers than shouts. > > > -the best teacher is experience, and for those with lots of it >you can > > > be sure that they have had their share of joy and sorrow and are >hoping > > > for less sorrow and more joy. That is the motivator. > > > > > > Suze > > > > > > Cavatibs wrote: > > > > > > > > Whilst listing Champions & judging credentials is a statement of >fact, it is > > > > also a form of self promotion. It is a form of bragging. I see no >reason why > > > > breeders should not do this if they wish. However, when others >publish their > > > > good health test results, either in advertising form or in a >Health/Heart > > > > Registry, they are often ridiculed and accused of using this as a >sales pitch > > > > to sell their puppies. And advertising one's Champions is not a >sales pitch > > > > for encouraging people to use the dog at stud or to sell puppies? > > > > > > > > If keeping health test results a secret is a breeder's policy, then >Champions > > > > and show wins should also be kept secret. > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > -- > > > Suze at Llawen Cavaliers > > > "...I have seen that in any great undertaking it is not enough for a >man > > > to depend simply upon himself." -Isna Ia-wica > > > "Thought comes before speech" Luther Standing Bear > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > "Magic Commands": > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > Search the Archives... >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original >author. > > > > ========================================================= > > "Magic Commands": > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > to start it up gain click here: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > >-- >Suze at Llawen Cavaliers >"...I have seen that in any great undertaking it is not enough for a man >to depend simply upon himself." -Isna Ia-wica >"Thought comes before speech" Luther Standing Bear > >========================================================= >"Magic Commands": >to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL >to start it up gain click here: >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. >Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > >All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author.
