>>>Really, this is not about any particular situation, just want some thoughts. A cavalier tests heart clear via cardiologist auscultation at age 5. Obviously we all agree it is OK to breed this cavalier per the guidelines. What would you do if when you test the dog when it is 6 or 7and it has a Grade 3 or 4 murmur , per auscultation? Would you stop breeding that cavalier? Would it make a difference if it were a male or female? Everybody talks about looking for lines with long-lived dogs. Are those long-lived dogs living long with a mild murmur? thoughts?.....
I don't breed like this--period. I consider MVD the most *serious* issue with Cavaliers and it is treated as such. The *dog* in question should not be the only dog you are thinking about. Again, this is breeding phenotypically, and if there is any other way, I would NOT breed a dog that was only phenotypically clear at age 5. Especially one that progressed what I consider *quickly*. In my 26 years of breeding, even though every single Cavalier is different in how they express MVD, in my opinion I believe I am seeing only 3 *distinct* types of MVD. (1) Cavalier develops MVD early (age 6 or earlier) and progresses quickly (grade 3 or higher within 2 years) and usually but not always is dead earlier than average. (2) Cavalier develops MVD at age 3 through age 6 and progresses slowly--is still grade 1, maybe 2, past age 7 or 8 and lives a normal lifespan (re MVD only). (3) Cavalier develops MVD age 7 or later and progresses slowly. I categorize those that never develop MVD in the last category as there are so few that were cardiologist cleared every year throughout their lives and because there are just a handful of Cavaliers that fit into this category. Then there is a separate classification that I'm not sure just how to categorize--those that remain completely MVD clear then suddenly chordae tendinae *blow out* the one side of the valve literally overnight often resulting in the dog dying almost instantly--but sometimes with careful monitoring they go on to live for years (if both sides blow out I think there is no chance for that dog although I'm sure there have been exceptions!). In my opinion of Cavaliers at this point in time, I consider early onset before age 4, average onset at age 4-6, and late onset at age 7 or later. I base this on generalizing all the studies that have been done to date-realizing how few dogs were checked and therefore rationalizing an approximate guess of what the real statistics would turn out to be should every Cavalier be auscultated yearly--and decided that it is somewhat likely that generally and very approximately about 25% of Cavaliers will develop MVD before age 4 and generally about 25% of Cavaliers won't develop MVD till age 7 or later, with approx. 50% of them developing MVD between 4 and 6 years of age. I try to focus on dogs with late onset or dogs with some late onset history and little negative history of early or average onset. I would also consider a dog with average onset who still had a grade 1 or 2 murmur at age 9 or 10--especially if I had good history information. Of course there are exceptions to these categories, but then again I'm not so sure there are *many* exceptions. I think it is entirely possible that due to human inadequacies and the fact that murmur status can change from day to day that many murmurs are missed at a *younger* age. Using doppler would tend to erase many of these questions, but few breeders have the money or ability to doppler every dog. I believe age 5 is just an arbitrary number. Yes, Cavaliers clear at age 5 are in the upper 50th percentile, but still just because a dog is supposedly auscultated clear right at age 5, doesn't necessarily mean that much. Maybe the dog was checked shortly after age 5. Maybe just a month later (still age 5) the dog already had developed MVD to the extent that it could be heard--but few of us have our dogs aucultated more than once a year. Maybe the cardiologist had a cold or sinus infection and wasn't hearing quite as well that day and the dog did have a grade 1 murmur. Maybe the dog had an audible murmur the month before but on that day for whatever reason the murmur was inaudible. Many too many possibilities that could have gone into this supposedly clear evaluation. The fact that the dog is progressing quickly should be cause to rethink. History is needed. Why would one only look at that particular dog anyway? Isn't there some way to get history on that dog? What about the dog's parents? Were they cardiologist evaluated yearly? What was their status? How about the dog's relatives: siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents? Isn't some other information available to you so you could make a better decision? Do you know honest cardiologist or longevity history--not heresay? One of the reasons I bought my Finley was because of his MVD *history*--besides his other attributes of course. His two granddads are Alberto and Kasanova. I do have important pieces of information about those dogs. I know Alberto lived to be 15 and Kasanova was cardiologist clear at 9 and at the time of his death. At the time of Finley's birth I knew Alberto was 11 and had cardiologist clear offspring at age 8, 9 and 10 in the U.S. and I knew the clear cardiologist status of Kasanova. I feel *better* having this information and feel fairly safe in breeding to Finley--but still worry a little--despite the fact that he has a 3/4 brother who was clear at 8 and is probably still clear, despite the fact that he recently dopplered clear. I'm hesitant about using any male at stud unless it is either 7 years of age or older and still MVD clear, but I do use those that I do have good information about MVD history--both parents (or the grandparents) being clear to age 7 or more or alive past age 10. I don't want to hear poor MVD information about more than one of the six immediate ancestors--parents or grandparents. Since the males tend to develop MVD at very slightly younger ages, an older clear male is more significant than an older clear female. Therefore I put slightly more importance on the male parent or male grandparents being clear at 7 than I do on the females. Of course, due to secrecy, it is hard to get this information, but I try. If I get poor MVD information on one ancestor and can't get any good MVD information--I will pass. In most cases enough information is available that I can hazard a very general and approximate guess of what that dog's genotype might be for MVD. And make a better decision on whether or not to breed to that dog. Don't think just dog--think history. I think anyone could understand why I would not use the dog you referred to. Laura Lang Roycroft Cavaliers ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. 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