Well, we are really in a disagreement over this. To me, the dog who wins at Westminster has defeated every dog that he has defeated, starting with the puppy classes and moving upwards to when he was a special. He has defeated all the other dogs who didn't win that day. Thank goodness, the AKC agrees with me, and awards points accordingly. Myra
>From: Annette Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious >Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:48:55 -0000 > >HE has!!!! >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 1:26 AM >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > But making that statement Annette is like saying that the dog who wins >Best > > In Show at Westsminster has only beaten six other dogs. Myra > > > > > > > > >From: Annette Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > >Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:23:41 -0000 > > > > > >Same over here Myra except that we don't have points neverthe less you >are > > >only competing against one Pug, one Peke,one Charlie etc etc > > >When Mollie won BPIS at the Three Counties show last year she was only > > >competing against seven other puppy group winners, despite the fact >that > > >there would have been several hundred puppies entered over the three >days > > >of > > >the show. That is why I said the odds were reduced at group level >compared > > >to at breed level > > > > > >Annette > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 11:38 PM > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > > > > > > > Things must be quite different in the UK from the US. Here, if your >dog > > > > beats the pug in group.....your dog is considered to have beaten all >of > > >the > > > > pugs entered that day. He is awarded points based on how many pugs >were > > > > entered. He beat the pug who was considered the best pug entered, > > >therefore > > > > when he beats the pug, he beat the dogs that were beaten by that >pug. > > >Maybe > > > > we are talking oranges and apples here. Different countries, >different > > > > situations. Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Annette Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:11:00 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >VBG correction Myra you are only competing against the winners of >the > > > > >classes - i.e. one from each breed. I forget how many there are in >the > > >Toy > > > > >group in the US but lets say 20 - so you have a twenty to one >chance >in > > >the > > > > >group against 30 to one in the breed of taking BOB > > > > > > > > > >Annette > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:32 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annette, I agree with you. But....I wasn't talking about >specialty > > > > >shows. > > > > > > I was talking about AKC shows, and the number is never anywhere >near > > >as > > > > > > large. A good sized AKC show here may have 30 cavaliers entered >and > > > > >that > > > > >is > > > > > > the total for all classes and includes both genders. That is >why >I > > >said > > > > > > that a class win is not as meaningful as the breed win which is > > >followed > > > > >by > > > > > > being shown in the toy group ring. The class win, which you may > > >have > > > > >won > > > > >by > > > > > > competing against 4-5 cavaliers is not as meaningful as a win in >the > > > > >group > > > > > > ring where you have essentially competed against several hundred > > >other > > > > >toy > > > > > > dogs. Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Annette Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:55:43 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sorry Myra I disagree! VBG It's at breed level the real >competition > > >is > > > > >- > > > > >if > > > > > > >you beat a couple of hundred others of the same breed to me >that >is > > >far > > > > > > >better than beating one of every other breed in the Toy group. > > >There > > >it > > > > > > >boils down very much to the knowledge of the judge and at the >end > > >of > > > > >the > > > > > > >day > > > > > > >his/her personal preference - nothing to do with structure or > > >movement > > > > >- > > > > > > >there are other breeds that have exactly the same problems or > > >similar > > > > >at > > > > > > >any > > > > > > >rate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Annette > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:57 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Curious > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look, everybody knows I am an idiot, and there are many >things > > >that > > > > >I > > > > > > >don't > > > > > > > > know. However, this is something to ponder. The real >"showing" > > > > >isn't > > > > > > >done > > > > > > > > at a class level. It is done at a group level. For too >many > > >years, > > > > > > > > cavaliers were judged in sort of a vacumn because they were > > >judged > > > > >only > > > > > > > > against each other. It was almost like 'just go for the >pretty > > >head > > > > > > >because > > > > > > > > all the rear ends are so bad.' So, they didn't have to >develop > > >that > > > > > > >kind > > > > > > >of > > > > > > > > structure that they needed to compete with a poodle, for > > >instance. > > > > >It > > > > > > >is > > > > > > > > important to remember that they are dogs. They need to be >built > > > > >like > > > > >a > > > > > > >dog. > > > > > > > > They need to move like a well-built dog. Now for the last > > >several > > > > > > >years, > > > > > > > > they have had to compete against other toy dogs in the group > > >ring. > > > > > > >Sure, > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > see dogs in the ring that shouldn't be there. I've probably > > >shown > > >a > > > > > > >couple > > > > > > > > myself. I probably will again in the future just because of > > > > >ignorance > > > > > > >or > > > > > > > > just because I feel like doing it. However.....those dogs >will > > >not > > > > >ever > > > > > > > > compete in a group ring. They will take their little ribbon > > >home > > > > >and > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > may even make up their championship. They will not, however > > >succeed > > > > >in > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > group ring. Also....if a dog places in group, you can no >longer > > >use > > > > >the > > > > > > > > excuse that it won because it was professionally handled. >The > > >huge > > > > > > >majority > > > > > > > > of dogs in the group ring are professionally handled. Not > > > > >all....but > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > majority. I'm not sure exactly what motivates me to show >my > > >dogs. > > > > >I > > > > > > >know > > > > > > > > for sure it isn't greed. I guess it could be ego. The >feeling > > >I > > > > >get > > > > > > >when > > > > > > > > one of my dogs wins in group, or Best Puppy in show or >something > > > > >like > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > is the same feeling I used to get when my children performed >at > > >a > > > > >piano > > > > > > > > recital or something. I just feel proud of them, and I feel > > >just > > >a > > > > > > >little > > > > > > > > bit like bragging on them. Certainly not money motivated >and > > >not > > > > >even > > > > > > > > particularly fun. When my dog is in the show ring, I am >very > > > > >stressed > > > > > > >about > > > > > > > > it. I get very nervous. I'm so afraid he will make a >mistake. > > > > >Just > > > > > > > > exactly like it was at the piano recital. So, is that Ego? >I > > >don't > > > > > > > > honestly know. Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > > > > > > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the > > >email: > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > > > > > Search the Archives... > > > > >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 2002 by its >original > > > > >author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 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