First of all, I generally agree with you Robert. 1. Cocoon is overly daunting at first sight. 2. MS get you going much faster. 3. Separation between User and Developer must be stronger. 4. Point-Click deployment tools should become a priority.
There are a few things I don't agree with; 1. I downloaded Cocoon for the first time in 2years in "binary" form and dropped the ready-made cocoon.war into Tomcat (also default config). Worked straight out of the box, although the docs suggested otherwise. Since I was involved in discussing the sitemap concept in the first place, I knew how that mechanism work, and was within an hour able to publish my first document. 2. Everything can not be learnt in 10 minutes. I bet you spent a few weeks before mastering Java. How long for XML? Or why not the "MS friendly" Excel? Certain things takes time, Cocoon is one where you probably need to "invest time". You talk about "real business". And I do "real business", no paycheck, no security, only what I produce. The matter of fact, "investments" are almost always "upfront expenditure" for long-term "returns", a.k.a Return-On-Investment (ROI). Sometimes expressed in time, even for money. I invest $100,000, ROI=2years, meaning from now until 24months it has cost more than it returned, after that it is "profit". You do it all the time. Learn new things to be more productive. Why waste the time? It's up to you. 3. 61MB download is a problem??? The dozens of CDs that MSDN consists of is not? Try to download them, or a portion of it. What is the footprint of dotNet? Downloadable? I don't know, but I doubt it. In fact, when I was shouting about the trouble to install Cocoon in the old days, requiring 10 separate downloads from almost as many sources, I was told that the bundle would be too big. I'm happy that people reconsidered it. Finally, There are efforts going on to improve the separation, and you come back in a year, and you will be able to create and deploy COBs (just learnt it) as easy as a WAR, and no need to "see", "hear" or "smell" internals of Cocoon. I feel you have passed judgement already, but I recommend you to make it a "preliminary injunction", and re-evaluate your position, especially when you have a weekend to "invest". It should take much more... Niclas On Sunday 26 January 2003 10:47, Robert Simmons wrote: > > Robert Simmons dijo: > > >No professional dev wants, or has the time, to blow 2 to > > > three weeks just to get separation of logic and presentation. > > > > How you think a Professional developer do that? I ended my Master Degree > > in Computer Science in 1995 just before Java hits the streets and Windows > > 95 was just at beta release? How do you think I am here now? > > > > > Too high of a price for too little gain. > > > > Please if you said that phrase you dont really understand what is in the > > game. I recommend you to check how this little grain affect totally the > > Web machinery at all. I recommend you to read the second chapter of the > > Carsten Matthew book: XML: Building XML Applications. You can find it at > > amazon.com > > Well, I dont think you understand the pressures in professional circles to > meet deadlines. In the open source world, you have all the time in the > world to screw with things. When using a product in a working business > deadlines get in the way of doing things the "right" way. This is an > explanation of why .NET has been successful. Its a cheap piece of garbage, > but its easy to get started. Noone wants to be an expert in 10 hours but > they at leat want to have somethign of a clue. > > > > Powerful? I believe you. I believe its powerful. Scalable? I don't > > > know. > > > > Scalable? Please, just check JBoss.org and answer yourself the question. > > > > > The Wiki page runs very slow for me and a tutorial linked to me from > > > the IBM site (which was done in cocoon) was taking 10 to 15 seconds per > > > page to render. > > > > This is an issue for your computer and/or Internet connection. > > I dont knwo the cuase but it isnt my isp. > > > I live in > > Managua, Nicaragua. Maybe it is so far that you dont know where is it. > > But the wiki takes me less that 3 secs. Of course I use Red Hat Linux 8.0 > > and Mozilla that is faster than MS IE. Sometimes I go down and use a > > Windows machine, but I always use Mozilla, because it is faster. > > > > Check http://www.mozilla.org > > Great. You like mozilla. Do me a favor and go out there and convince all > the bluechip companies to switch. You may not like microsoft but in a > business world you have to deal with it. Whether that is bad or good is > irrlevant. > > > > Put that in production and your company can kiss sales > > > goodbye. Internet users are impatient and any guy with a DSL isn't > > > going to wait 15 seconds for your page. > > > > This is a developers issue, not a Cocoon issue. There are many books > > related about web design. How to improve performance using CSS, etc. Take > > a look at that technology and tell me how slow it is. > > What CSS has to do with my question is beyond me. > > > > User friendly? You've got to be joking. > > > > What? Cocoon? Well, here I think you must first understand the philosophy > > behind Cocoon and after that we can talk about that. > > No no no. You arent gettign it. People dont WANT to understand the > philosophy. Do I have to understand the JBoss development philosophy to use > it? Nope. What about Ant? Again nope. What about Tomcat? Agin the answer is > no. You dont seem to be able to separate the cocoon developer from the > cocoon user. One is trying to contribute to the cocoon project but the rest > of us just want to use it to snap up a pipeline in 15 min. We honestly > couldnt care less what the philosophy of its internal design is. Its > irrlevant to us. I get paid for makign applications for my company, not for > learnign the concept of cocoon. If I have to learn the philosophy behind > how a tool is developed, that tool simply wont make the production > schedule. Business life is hard. In addition, according to object oriented > philosophy, I shouldnt have to know the philosophy behind a tool. Cocoon > should be a black box that i can use to wire together sitemaps. The only > time I need know anything is the interface I have to implement to design a > new generator and what xml file to declare it in. If someone asks me "how > does cocoon work?" I should be able to say "beats me but it does." You can > bet that when .NET puts out their product it will be like that. Knowing > Microsoft the product will be utter crap. However it will trounce cocoon > into the dust and people such as yourself will be staring at the carnage > and saying "but WHY!!!???" The answer is the same reason why many awesome > technologies have never worked. They failed to attract interest and > customers and never evolved. > > > Windows makes us too lazy, we want to do all just clicking a mouse. > > Welcome to business life reality. Your geek based (and I mean that as a > complement) idealism jsut flat doesnt pay the bills. > > > > No, I don't want to take up any more time from folks. I just simply > > > don't have the time to mess with it. Reading config files and figuring > > > out how the hell to build a new application just isn't what I want to > > > do a very trivial part of my project with. > > > > I will see you back again. Maybe the next year, how knows, but if you > > will stay at the development arena, you soon or late will be faced again > > with this technology. Please, Take a note of that. > > Probably not. You have about the same amout of time to revolutionize cocoon > to be an easy thing to use as it takes Microsoft to write competition. Deal > with it. Its a reality. If they put out a "cocoon" that is a piece of crap > with half the functionality of this one but weasy to use and deploy, than > they will blast this product right out the market. Microsoft understands > the need for Jumpstarts and quick starts. If cocoon is to survive, it needs > to change tactics fast. Away from "download nad build the source and then > do steps one through 600 and you will finally see a hello page." To, "well, > run the ant install script with your tomcat directory as a property, than > biuld a new sie using the basic example and oyu should have a hello-world > up in about 5 min." > > Right now I just finished downloadign cocoon from cvs. The bloody source is > 61 megs. That is a burning problem right there. One need not go any > further. > > Now im not attacking your baby. Im merely pointing out the need to teach > your baby some tricks. > > > Best Regards, > > > > Antonio Gallardo. > > --Robert > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
