I remember being first surprised and horrified by the slowdown of heavy playouts and thinking "there is no way this is going to happen."
But when I gave it a chance anyway, I was against surprised that although it was a drastic slowdown, it was still a major improvement. Lazarus heavy could beat Lazarus lite easily at the same time controls. However, I sense that it may have a lot to do with your search too. It seems like David is applying the knowledge of MFGO in one way or the other. Maybe that is the most important thing? It's also possible that when David says "lite" playouts he means something heavier than what we think. I doubt even Mogo's heavy playout resembles strong play but is simply tuned with some knowledge that can be implemented in reasonable time. - Don On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 13:11 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > David, > > A while back, Don did a 9x9 scalability study (before this one > http://cgos.boardspace.net/study/index.html) comparing light versus > heavy playouts. The light playouts didn't scale badly, they didn't > plateau early, they just weren't as strong as the heavy ones. There > was nothing to suggest that (enough) light playouts, in a MCTS, > couldn't produce a strong engine. This is consistent with what you > report. > > ("Scalability" is another good keyword for those interesting in > keywords to guide search in this list.) > > It sounds like you are passing up low hanging fruit here. I predict > that a version of Many Faces incorporating, for instance, the heavy > playout policy described in the (first?) Mogo paper would be > significantly stronger than the current one. If it wasn't, I would be > quite surprised and curious to learn why not. > > Naturally, I'm handicapped by not knowing the details of the current > Many Faces playout policy. I bet I'm right, though. > > - Dave Hillis > "Often in error, never in doubt." > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: 'computer-go' <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:17 pm > Subject: RE: [computer-go] Go/Games with modified scores > > I use Many Faces' knowledge in the search, but not the playouts. I made > them as light and fast as I could. > I don't have a way any more to just do playouts without the uct search. In > your position after a few thousand playouts, it gets over 95% win for white > and 5% win for black (depending on who I make move first). > > If I limit the uct search to 1 ply, it thinks white wins 49.5% and black 49% > (of the best move for each, always D9) > > I guess this confirms your assertion (and Don's as well) that light playouts > without UCT search can't play well. With UCT search, it seems that light > playouts are quite effective. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren Cook > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:42 PM > > To: computer-go > > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Go/Games with modified scores > > > > > Many Faces uses quite light playouts, and is 1 kyu 19x19 on KGS when > > run on > > > 32 cores. So I think you can make a fairly strong program using > > light > > > playouts. My playouts are certainly far lighter than Crazystone or > > Mogo. > > > > Hi David, > > "quite light" is a bit vague, and I got the impression you were using > > the classical many faces knowledge, at least the tactical search > > information, in your playouts? > > > > What do your program's playouts think when presented with the board > > position in the article? This is a terminal position, both players have > > passed, a comfortable white win, yet pure random playouts think black > > will win more often. > > > > Darren > > > > >> > > http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html > > > > > > -- > > Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer > > http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic > > open source dictionary/semantic network) > > http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) > > http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) > > _______________________________________________ > > computer-go mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race > while you browse - Download Now! > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
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