Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I only counted each couple once:
Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above gent * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation. I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3v3CmYypBQ> clip, but there were too many cuts. The 1964 video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1MHXietLc> would be another one to try? Jeff On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Responding to various points. > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences > (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and > desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. > > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking > approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and > Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a > year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, > where: > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back > (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover > which he points out in the description is what to follow) > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the > lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, > with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or > "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) > > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and > holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were > supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is > "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that > after I touch on some specific points: > > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s > supporting right hand." > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the > feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced > people who lean back. > > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because > you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." > I don't think this is accurate. > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, > and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. > There's always exceptions, sure. > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then > again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support > that's needed to be given. > > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going > to be on top of me." > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of > the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is > partially off the shoulderblade. > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can > naturally curve around the shoulderblade. > > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are > coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in > collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list > here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've > really experienced or heard discussed. > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do > it? > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an > under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more > open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before > I try and wrap my right arm around. > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a > star promenade. > > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm > rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in > the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing > their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. > > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as > wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. > Some men dance with men, some women with women. > Etc. > > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for > both people" as a universal and generic skill. > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may > seem! > > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of > contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to > adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium > that works for both people. > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's > fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust > their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, > tiredness, injury, age, etc. > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschl...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Julian, >> Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons >> back, I agree with Joe. >> >> The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >> >> First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length >> of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long >> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on >> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK >> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, >> I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their >> hand on my back.) >> >> Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are >> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening >> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts >> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >> potentially harmful. >> >> Neal Schlein >> Librarian, MSLIS >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I >>> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>> complaint about it. >>> >>> That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>> >>> That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>> >>> The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the >>> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>> fairly petite. >>> >>> I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have >>> an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>> >>> That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold >>> works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I >>> might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, >>>> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years >>>> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on >>>> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I >>>> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie >>>> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide >>>> equal support in the swing. >>>> >>>> While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are >>>> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this >>>> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>> >>>> Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >>>> >>>> --jh-- >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> JJ, >>>>> >>>>> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry >>>>> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, >>>>> >>>>> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows >>>>> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). >>>>> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that >>>>> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our >>>>> goal >>>>> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as >>>>> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - >>>>> can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>> >>>>> In dance, >>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >>>>>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >>>>>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my >>>>>> left >>>>>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >>>>>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes >>>>>> over >>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>> >>>>>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >>>>>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the >>>>>>> norm." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially >>>>>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially >>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>>>>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>>>>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>>>>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are >>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right >>>>>>>> arm, >>>>>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands >>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>>>> change... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's >>>>>>>> terrible, >>>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing >>>>>>>> pain >>>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand >>>>>>>> from my >>>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can >>>>>>>> hurt >>>>>>>> the lark. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the >>>>>>>> entire >>>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. >>>>>>>> Only >>>>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --jh-- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>>>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. >>>>>>>>> As we >>>>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it >>>>>>>>> guided >>>>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced >>>>>>>>> dancer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the >>>>>>>>>> robin’s >>>>>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s >>>>>>>>>> hand is >>>>>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the >>>>>>>>>> hand/arm >>>>>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to >>>>>>>>>> me if >>>>>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - >>>>>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! >>>>>>>>>> Though >>>>>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're >>>>>>>>>> working on >>>>>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has >>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at >>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the >>>>>>>>>> hold you >>>>>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and >>>>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the >>>>>>>>>> photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* >>>>>>>>>> go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>>>>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers >>>>>>>>>> at a >>>>>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using >>>>>>>>>> it! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped >>>>>>>>>> my arm. >>>>>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen >>>>>>>>>> felt >>>>>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - >>>>>>>>>> it was >>>>>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your >>>>>>>>>> weight! >>>>>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control >>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal >>>>>>>>>> force and >>>>>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own >>>>>>>>>> balance >>>>>>>>>> and weight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught >>>>>>>>>> badly, >>>>>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >>>>>>>>>> afford >>>>>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing >>>>>>>>>> at high >>>>>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >>>>>>>>>> just slow >>>>>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing ( >>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >>>>>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>>>>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference >>>>>>>>>> between a >>>>>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with >>>>>>>>>> EVERY >>>>>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to >>>>>>>>>> dance. >>>>>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than >>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their >>>>>>>>>> contra >>>>>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of >>>>>>>>>> conduct which >>>>>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but >>>>>>>>>> it’s >>>>>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when >>>>>>>>>> they come >>>>>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, >>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with >>>>>>>>>> whoever comes >>>>>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our >>>>>>>>>> culture? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own >>>>>>>>>> intimacy to >>>>>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might >>>>>>>>>> entail? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >
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