The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. Bob
> On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were common > sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a few > annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each bullet > describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the timestamp. I > only counted each couple once: > > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind lady's > back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, > lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder, > gent's right hand on lady's back > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind > gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above gent > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's back, > lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on lady's > back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand behind > lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, > lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, > lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder > > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's > left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the standard > today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of variation. > > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too many > cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? > > Jeff > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Responding to various points. > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional differences > (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really about?) > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone and > desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. > > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking approximately > the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and Swing, and Zesty > Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published a > year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, > where: > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back > (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover > which he points out in the description is what to follow) > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting the > lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm (Jennings, > with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) or > "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) > > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, and > holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were > supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is > "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that after > I touch on some specific points: > > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s > supporting right hand." > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the > feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced people > who lean back. > > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together because you > are limited to the length of the shorter arm." > I don't think this is accurate. > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't small, and > adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size differences. There's > always exceptions, sure. > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. Then > again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less support > that's needed to be given. > > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to > be on top of me." > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" of the > back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle is > partially off the shoulderblade. > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often can > naturally curve around the shoulderblade. > > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are > coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in > collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this list > here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing I've > really experienced or heard discussed. > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... do > it? > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of an > under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in more > open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm before I > try and wrap my right arm around. > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on a star > promenade. > > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm rests > on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work in the > dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and timing their > own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. > > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as wellwhen > it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. > Some men dance with men, some women with women. > Etc. > > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for both > people" as a universal and generic skill. > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may seem! > > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of contra, > I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to adjust > themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium that works > for both people. > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, that's > fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust their > style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, > tiredness, injury, age, etc. > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Julian, > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other persons > back, I agree with Joe. > > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. > > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the length of > the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long arms—putting > your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on top of me. I > don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK with that. With > a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. (Also, I sweat from the > head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants their hand on my back.) > > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are coming > in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in collision. > SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a changed angle for > one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening of the hold to match > the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby pulling the swing closer > together than otherwise necessary…which also puts the other person’s arm > (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a non-natural position, which > is likely to be physically uncomfortable and potentially harmful. > > Neal Schlein > Librarian, MSLIS > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Hi Joe, > > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach > it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint > about it. > > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins > pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." > > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's > hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not > the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the > issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and > holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) > > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of > each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One > usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one > dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. > > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an > evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. > And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. > > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold > works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I > might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're > requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and > it's always possible I'm missing something.) > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com> > wrote: > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but an > alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, where > the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the lark's > back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know at least > one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie workshop and tells > their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide equal support in the > swing. > > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not > grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this > without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent > backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right > place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much eliminates > my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by pushing my elbow > out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially refusing the position. > I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, so it kills any enjoyment > in that swing. > > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major support > in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff described, or > even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top are much better > opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their lark's arm can also > reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold (robin's arm on top) to > add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. > > --jh-- > > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> > wrote: > JJ, > > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of a > ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. > > Joe, > > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows occupy > the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). That said, > it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that everyone has > different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal for everyone > dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as such is a good > reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - can anticipate > every need or difference. > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the switch" > in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on (assuming > we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left arm is the > "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the "pointy arm," > I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell myself "I'm the > Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over and I just end on > whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. > > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles without > warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the traditional > ballroom figure. > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role > actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." > > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it > as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I > remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys > dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. > By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in > the standard way? > > Jeff > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that > indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have to > lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm pretty > tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or both > partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and your > partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than ballroom, with > four arms providing support rather than one. > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using > the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd almost > universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is symmetrical and > very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around the other's back > and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, bend 90 degrees at > the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around each other's > forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never happened that the > one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that > became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a particular guy partner > whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first and then did it with each > other, but we gender-neutral-swung our neighbors. We got some pretty > surprised looks from our neighbors when we swung each other. At least one guy > asked me if that partner and I were an item. Times and role terms and what > people read into dance behavior change... > > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're > happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme > to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of > disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the > dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty > great in other ways. > > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where > the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place where > the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it this way, > I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because their elbow > and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, well, > physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they try to > provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any chance I can > provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can either force my > elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull my arm up to rest > it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can > convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as > intended and it can hurt the lark. > > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no communication > is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the lark's, they rest > their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire length of the arm > and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to provide some support on > the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they are short enough that they > can't do this, then they're often also light enough that additional support > isn't critical, though it does make for more connection. It's important not > to press down on the shoulder, though. Only pull forward. > > --jh-- > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this email > thread and observations. > > Short and simple: > A "barrel hold" swing: > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his > left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged in > the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things in. It > worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. > > In dance, > -Julian Blechner > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the lark’s > in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that having > that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the > transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is > always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is typically > cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things like a > balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm > orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if I > were just learning this swing. > Becky > >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for spacing >> -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I think >> Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that it >> retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you say >> when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with >> (visual at >> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >> ) >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are >> holding just above the elbow. >> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left >> hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in this >> video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >> Starts at 3:18. >> Thoughts? >> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that >> in this video referenced by Allan - >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared above >> via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of >> the two dancing partners? >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm >> still be above the Lark's? >> >> Thanks all! >> Kat K in Halifax >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>> Hi Kat, >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you >>> mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened >>> Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. >>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and love >>> it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance at >>> The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really >>> worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem is >>> that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People >>> misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight >>> then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it >>> not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot BY >>> THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and weight. >>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive >>> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then >>> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford >>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high >>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow >>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>> weight or fall over. >>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find it >>> is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do it >>> without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting >>> used to. >>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing >>> (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could always >>> try the Forearm Swing instead >>> (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, >>> but further apart so no bodily contact. >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 >>> 574 >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack of >>> physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in >>> contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, >>> is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>> yes to one person. >>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a few >>> years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line >>> specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important >>> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used >>> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree >>> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been >>> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance >>> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite >>> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I >>> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel >>> safer, especially for new dancers. >>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the difference. >>> >>> Becky >>> >>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold >>> feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold >>> feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds >>> with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed >>> arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, >>> though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I >>> wouldn't say the default) >>> >>> Is it something else? >>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an >>> alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> He/him >>> Western Mass >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
