-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 FACORAT Fabrice wrote: > Le mar 12/08/2003 � 14:26, Buchan Milne a �crit : > >>FACORAT Fabrice wrote: >> >>>I just wonder if kernel-multimedia should not be included by default >>>when the user make a desktop install ( ok, there is not really a >>>desktop/server class during install, so maybe propose if the user want >>>to optimise is system for multimedia and if Y, then install >>>kernel-multimedia instead of standard kernel ). >> >>mm kernel is in contrib => not on CDs. > > > so it may be on CD. >
Must go into main first. > >>>Here are my points : >>> - normal user need a working supermount ( no erratic CDROM/floppy >>>access pb, no pb when transfering a large file from CDROM to HD ). Most >>>of the time we advise mdk to newbies because they will have a simple >>>installation, good config tools, and ... supermount. Indeed newcomers >>>don't appreciate and understand well mount/umount mecanism and they are >>>fed up with it when they try to change the CD and they can't because of >>>a console or even fam after having access it wia konqueror. So >>>supermount-ng is interesting for them. >> >>Supermount should work in the stock kernel, or should be removed. >>MCSE-style server administrators also want reliable access to CDs. > > supermount is not a necessity, No, it's a convenience, which newbies should enjoy. > and MSCE-style server administrators are > bad IMHO. They have to start somewhere, and they are a big market. Anyway, RH has automount enabled by defualt on their GPL edition. >> >>But mp3 support has nothing to do with kernel patches really. > > > yeah, it as to do with putting bledding edge features, and what desktop > users wants. Mp3 isn't a bleeding edge feature I think. > RH target enterprise ( workstation/server ) and most of the time they > don't need mp3 and in order to not have pb with patents ( USA lawyers > are sometimes crazy ) they don't put mp3. Mandrakesoft approached Thompson, but RH claims their lack of support for MP3 is a software patent protest. > But desktop users complains > about that. > > >>>standard kernel should be for server like activities : best stability, >>>throughput, acl, security, scalability. You don't need supermount on a >>>server, or low latency. >>> >>>[*] Note : kernel enterprise is suitable is you have more than 1Gb of >>>RAM. if your server have less, you end up with normal kernel, so >>>kernel-enterprise is for server with ... many RAM. >>>Now if with HIGHMEM support a kernel is not slower or too slower than a >>>kernel without it, standard kernel could be remove and so u have just >>>kernel-enterprise, kernel-smp and kernel-secure. >> >>What about low-end servers?? We have a P133/32MB firewall (currently >>MNF8.2), I don't want to lose some ram to HIGHMEM support. > > > so that's why I ask if there are issues with HIGHMEM support. So you > point one ( mem consumption ). others one ? Now you can even balances > advantages/issues in order to see what to do. Does mdksoft want to > target low-end server, etc ... When we could be stealing market share from RH AS 2.1 or SLES 8, the only distro's certified for Oracle clusters? I don't think we can afford to not target low-end. >>Hmmm, should be more stable than the competition, which is not trivial >>these days. > > at least more stable than windows. stable enough means to me that if you > can't have an uptime of 2 years with a daily normal use, it's not a > problem. > > >>>So I understand if Juan Quintela don't want to include supermount-ng, >> >>Instead, include a supermount with known bugs? > > It's what mdksoft do and seems to keep doing ... And you think it's better having a desktop kernel available than to have more bugs fixed in the default kernel? Should we not have the updated from Thomas fixing server drivers (is AIC7xxx in stock kernel up-to-date now?). > > >>>low-latency and maybe other fancy stuff. But for desktop user ... it's >>>good for server, maybe workstation, but not for desktop user. Most of >>>the time they want bleeding edge. Ok, mdk provide kernel-multimedia on >>>third CD, and ? Are you going to tell the user to install by hand this >>>kernel after the install ? and if they are using for example nvidia >>>drivers ? they install kernel-multimedia, reboot, black screen, "help, >>>help ... blabla - you need to reinstall nvidia drivers - how can i do it >>>? >> >>Well where did they get NVidia drivers for their kernel? > > > http://www.nvidia.com > and most of them will go there, and most people will advise them to go > there, and as windows users they will tend to go there. > Well, then they know how to fix it, they can't complain "help, black screen". >> We could >>consider making NVidia driver RPMS for mm kernel for Club for example. > > maybe, but most of them won't be in mdkclub. > Maybe more will be in MandrakeClub when they realise it provides things like this (ie being able to setup Nvidia via XFdrake after entering Club memberhip details should work, not command-line use at all). >> >>IMHO, Juan needs to apply the patches sent to him, otherwise the stock >>kernel has problems in either role. > > providing one kernel for desktop/workstation/server is bad idea as aims > are not the same. > tmp/mm kernel are usefull for desktop users, but not for enterprise > users. 0(1) as corner case pbs, the same for low-latency and/or preempt > patches, etc ... > >>Mandrakesoft may not want to officially support the -mm kernel (means >>providing/testing kernel updates for it also). > > That's the pb. mdksoft target desktop/server/workstation market. But > when you look at the distro it's like a batard, it's not natural. > i.e u can use for desktop, but it miss some things. Like what? Does any other disto ship a low-loat, preempt kernel? > You can use it for > server but all this bleeding edge packages make u feel that you may end > up with something not sure. So kde-3.1.3 on your server is bad, but it's ok to have samba-2.2.3a (Debain stable, ancient release the samba team won't support anymore) or samba-3.0.0beta2 (Debian unstable), or maybe just samba-3.0.0beta3 (RH), when we give the best samba-2.2.8a packages (except maybe for SuSE) *and* the choice to run samba3?? Sorry, I don't buy it. Also, Redhat's glibc in RH9 was so broken you could not use it in any environment with large numbers of users, you had to wait about 6 weeks after release to be able to use it in a large Windows domain (for example). > mdksoft at this time seems to not have the ability to cope with this ( > they need maybe more people and of course more more money ). > mdk have choice to do. > they want desktop ? so they should do more like Lindows/Xandros. It's not the look that needs to be addressed, it's the management of thousand's of desktops (ie NDS/AD for linux), and storing msec config and urpmi config in ldap could be a good way to start ... (ie ability to automate/delegate sofware installation, and ability to lock-down security en-masse). > Look > what happen with Wal-Mart. Lindows is best fit for desktop ( customised, > windows like, less apps leaving for clarity ). But Lindows makes no money here. The market is corporate desktops, not home users. > > they want workstation/server ? so they should do as Suse ( special > workstation edition, fully customise ) or RH. Too expensive, and you need 3rd-party apps certified. Best market IMHO is corporate uniform desktops (ie not scientific-specific use, but office-work). > > They want want firewall market ? do a special version for firewall. They > do it well with SNF/MNF. The product is customise and provide config > tools customised for it. BTW, snf packages work fine on 9.1, I have about 6 MNF boxes in production, only one is really MNF8.2 ... > > They need to see what they want to target. When they know they should > customised the distro for them and thus by providing several specific > distro. > With their swiss knife you will have people using it but IT and big > vendors not. Look the HP deal. They provide mdk on their workstation but > not on their server, they'd rather use Suse ( or RH ). Why ? notoriety, > specific products customised for this task. Well, IMHO, Mandrake is better on a server than Redhat ... and saves admin time ... the problem is that Mandrakesoft doesn't sell the server-side, probably too expensive to do so ... but Mandrakesoft needs a hardware partner for server-side, pity about HP, Mandrake does quite well on Compaq servers ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--------------Another happy Mandrake Club member--------------| Buchan Milne Mechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work +27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ORV2rJK6UGDSBKcRAlkqAJ9zCZusl7XKX6H23ohlkHbhbQBfeACdGuQE l2HEaiaYnXFRmA3yQVxc20o= =Xj7i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ****************************************************************** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. ******************************************************************
