Thanks for all of the great feedback so far everyone! I too really like the bus analogy - the points about not buying a seat on the bus, as well as the point about the ease of getting off when you just have a ticket both resonate with me!
This discussion brings up two related questions: 1. Will it be much more difficult to get a commercial mortgage for a coworking group that is not yet established vs. for one that has history in a leased space? I was planning on getting advance payment that would cover some percentage of initial months, as well as a percentage of members with some longer-term contracts. Additionally, the idea of using crowdfunding is appealing and may also signal community buy-in to bankers. However, nothing speaks like a year+ of operating success. 2. Planning a "pilot" with a lease with the intent to buy down the line will incur some disruption and perhaps additional costs when you make the move. It seems that most successful spots have weathered this similar shift well when moving to larger spaces. However, it is something to consider when you are balancing risk with longer term planning. A similar risk will be incurred if I aim for a "bigger" place at the outset, based on the trends that have shown successful spaces fairly quickly needing to upgrade in space. That wasn't really a question....so, question is, any really important lessons learned from these space upgrades? One of the best scenarios seems to be a lease with an option to buy............ On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Jeannine <[email protected]>wrote: > Actually, Will I couldn't agree more. The stakes are high with my own > model, and of course I made it up so I had and have no idea what to > expect. > > I will say that my own model is all tied up with location. Unhappily > my website is in Dutch so let me try to do this in short: I think > that places have an identity. Sometimes buildings also have one; but > places always do. The place affects the people who live there and the > people in turn affect the place. > > My space in Oosterhout is inextricably tied into the identity of > Oosterhout. The choices I have made have to do with this place and > how people approach life, work, and each other. It is all about > hospitality and homeiness. > > If I opened a space in Rotterdam, just twenty minutes up the road, it > would not be about that. It would be about the bling bling. It would > be about gettting things done. It would be about a lot of things but > not at all about hospitality or homeiness, that's not how it works in > Rotterdam. If I went to Den Bosch, twenty minutes the other way, it > would be about fun. It would be in a warehouse with lot sof color and > I dunno a flash mob or a street theater event at random moments. In > Den Bosch, if it isn't fun, they don't wanna know. > > I draw my model from the place. Location is key, and that means being > a part of it. I think that almost nobody else thinks of it that way; > and I think if that is not part of the DNA then buying might not be > the best idea. > > Later, > > Jeannine > > On Apr 13, 1:22 pm, "Will Bennis, Locus Workspace" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > This post doesn't speak to Janene and others who went from already > > owning to running a coworking space (great post and story, Janene, > > thank you for sharing it!). And it doesn't necessarily speak to Alex > > (or John and others) who already have a pretty good sense they are > > doing something right and who are taking a gradual approach owning > > (another great post that helped me a lot in thinking about these > > issues for myself). Or to the Google or NASA sponsored spaces with the > > resources to invest in a few black swans even if they all turn out to > > be white. It's mainly directed at Tricia and many of us with > > reasonable risk tolerance at relatively early stages of running > > coworking spaces. > > > > I personally think it's a bad idea to buy, at least at the early > > stages of running a coworking space. > > > > I love the "don't buy a seat on the bus" metaphor. What resonated with > > me about it was not so much the idea that you should buy the whole bus > > (i.e., buy the whole building, as Indy Hall may be contemplating, so > > your fate is not tied to something so outside your control as on other > > passengers--or tenants). What resonated to me was the idea that > > business is itself a fleeting thing that you might just want to get > > off of when it comes to the next stop. This is particularly true of a > > new and rapidly changing industry like coworking. You buy a ticket for > > the bus, then getting off isn't so difficult. > > > > While so much of the coworking press sings coworking's virtues (how it > > transforms the lives of independent workers and how rapidly it is > > growing), we really have close to zero reliable information about (a) > > the relative pros and cons for work experience or (b) how much of the > > rapid growth reflects industry success as compared to industry failure > > (since in both cases we have overwhelmingly better access to the > > positive stories than to the negative ones). > > > > The large majority of spaces I have known are small and struggling for > > profitability or have already gone out of business. Relatively few of > > them, including spaces and space owners who I think are amazing, have > > done as well as they expected to or as the people in their circle of > > advisers thought they would given perceived conservative estimates. > > The spaces that have done all right, my space included, have--IMO-- > > been as much a product of good luck as anything else. And whatever the > > recipes for success have been will not be the same in the next few > > years given the rapidly changing nature of both the industry and > > worker/employer needs and solutions. > > > > To me that's the primary argument for leasing (at least until you know > > from experience you've got the formula right and you have the social > > and physical capital to justify the cost/risk). > > > > Will > > > > On Apr 13, 11:07 am, Jeannine <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, yeah, I forgot: one very great advantage of owning is that you > > > can do whatever you want with the space (assuming it's legal I > > > mean) :-) I don't have any restrictions on opening times or access or > > > permitted uses or renovation or any of that; I am considering putting > > > solar panels on the roof for instance and I have a garden on the roof > > > as well as the one in back. Didn't have to check with the owner. :-) > > > > > Jeannine > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:03 am, Jeannine <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I am a little bass-ackwards in this -- okay, not just in this. I > > > > started Kamer52 in a space I already owned. I live in a 400 year old > > > > house; the former stable has been used through the years as a lot fo > > > > things, including a car painting shop, a bicycle shop, and so forth. > > > > My in-laws converted it to two office spaces, a larger one which they > > > > used themselves. and a smaller one which they rented out. > > > > > > One of the spaces came free and I decided to introduce a cooperative > > > > model of rural cowrking in it. Here's the first Kamer52, the street > > > > address is 52a: (You didn't think you would get away without looking > > > > at pics, did you)? > https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/55716... > > > > > > After about a year, the size of the space was becoming an issue -- > > > > there were only two rooms and the kitchen, and if somebody had a > > > > meeting in the large front space, nobody could use the smaller space > > > > in the back. So we moved in January to the new Kamer52, in 52b, the > > > > larger space which had just come free: > https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118169975709205235263/albums/56963... > > > > > > My new tenant in the smaller space is a computer repair shop, he has > > > > jumped into the coworking thing with both feet and so now we have a > > > > situation that is sort of coworking with an anchor, in both spaces. > > > > > > Because I had to start with no community (I *know*, Alex, I *know*, > > > > but when I started I was only partially literate in Dutch and may I > > > > add that having immigrated here when I was pushing 40, starting with > a > > > > community is not as easy as you might think? I knew no one, other > > > > than the parents of my kids' friends.) I don't think I could have > done > > > > it if I had been renting. I only had to cover my mortgage; the > > > > utilities for a 400 year old building with half meter thick stone > > > > walls are complicated but in essence it is wired and plumbed as one > > > > building, there is no separation of the utilities and no duct work > > > > absent a couple sticks of dynamite. > > > > > > Because of the nature of the laws here, I have become quite chummy > > > > with the folks at City Hall who deal with taxes, permits, zoning, and > > > > so forth. Happily for me thay have in general been uncomprehending > > > > but helpful. One of the issues we have to talk about in the > immediate > > > > future is that there are use taxes levied on each business registered > > > > at an address, and I offer a virtual office. I want them to bring > > > > those costs in and bill them to me so I can bill them through, > > > > otherwise it's too confusing. > > > > > > But they did cive me a permit to do retail in just the front room, so > > > > long as I don't turn it into a storefront, and they allow me to have > > > > periodic closed workshops in baking and cooking in the back room, as > > > > long as I don't turn it into a cafe or restaurant offering food to > the > > > > public, and I call that flexible and am grateful for it. I got the > > > > retail permit so we could sell art. But I am considering offering > the > > > > front room for use by people who sell handmade and crafted items; and > > > > also for use by my webshops as a pop-up. > > > > > > Indeed, if it doesn't work out, I will just rent it again, we rented > > > > it for years and I could just keep doing that. But it's more fun > this > > > > way. > > > > > > One thing which is popular in the Netherlands is for folks to enter > > > > into a sort of partnership with property owners to improve the > > > > building as part of the rent; this is especially popular with maker > > > > spaces. (I wish I had a maker space, but we are in the center of > town > > > > and I can't get the zoning). I think property owners need to get > with > > > > the program and reconsider what it is that they are doing and > > > > offering: commercial real estate has not changed in its essence > since > > > > the middle ages and I thinkit's about time it had an overhaul. > > > > > > IF there are any questions, fire away, I could go on and on but don't > > > > know what you would want to know. > > > > > > Jeannine > > > > On Apr 12, 5:12 pm, John Wilker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > We are currently renting our space. But buying it or another has > been on our minds since opening. Mainly so we're less limited in what we > can do with and to the building, as well as improvements. > > > > > > > To Alex's point about buying a seat on the bus, you also typically > don't want to spend a ton of time and money, making someone else's bus > pretty and super awesome. > > > > > > > The motorcycle museum below us (basement) may be moving, and the > building could someday be up for sale, so one option popping around has > been securing first right of refusal on the building, and being able to > expand labs and such downward when the museum leaves. > > > > > > > One thing with buying, even if coworking doesn't work out, you > have a building to rent out, or do something with, for better or worse. > > > > > > > John Wilker > > > > > Founder, 360|Conferences > > > > >(720) 381-2370begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (720) > 381-2370 > > > > > twitter: jwilker (http://twitter.com/jwilker) > > > > > johnwilker.com (http://johnwilker.com/) | 360|MacDev ( > http://360macdev.com/) | 360|Flex (http://360flex.com/) | 360|iDev ( > http://360idev.com/) > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 12, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Alex Hillman wrote: > > > > > > I'm actually curious about this too, specifically to hear from > coworking spaces that bought early on or those who have graduated to buying. > > > > > > > > We're entering into our 3rd major growth phase and the > purchasing conversation was on the table - it's not left the table, but > we've chosen renting (with a purchase option written into the lease) in > favor of the timing of our needs. > > > > > > > > Our reasons for buying also include the desire to be building > equity as the business grows, but also to continue to anchor ourselves in > the neighborhood that we've developed a relationship with over the last 4+ > years. We've helped attract lots of new businesses to the area (which is > mutually beneficial) and think that impact could increase with a statement > of "permanence" that comes with purchasing. > > > > > > > > That said, I got one particular piece of advice that's been > resonating with me: don't buy a seat on the bus. > > > > > > > > A lot of coworking spaces are a floor or a section of a building > with other tenants in it. Our current building is like this as well, but is > already condo-ized for potential purchase of a floor or floors. In > conversations about buying, I've come to the conclusion that we should be > buying the building, not a > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Coworking" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. > > -- Tricia Chirumbole US: +1-571-232-0942 Skype: tricia.chirumbole -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
