[Mark, I know this is off-topic but either this list is declared an non-reformist non-
anarchist non-many-things list, I think it is needed to refute throughly those who
argue that this or that way is impossible. That's how that discussion on Spain
started. Anyway, this is my final post on this issue. Again, if you feel I should go
away, I'll do so swiftly and without anger.]
>Julien, both sides in the Spanish conflict had some
>assistance from outside
Tahir, you're the king of euphemisms. Do you pretend that the "some
assistance" was kind of identical in importance?
>The
>point is that the ruling class were threatened by the
>instability under the 2nd republic ...
In fact, the uprisings of 34 had been brutally crushed and eventhough the
government of 36 freed the prisoners, the regime wasn't lax or weak. What's
that instability you're talking about?
>It is well known that many on the
>Nationalist side were in fact quite staunch republicans,
>such as Queipo de Llano, but they were not prepared to put
>up with anarchy and so gravitated towards the nationalist
>camp without being at all monarchists or fascists.
Yeah? They were not prepared to put up with the outcomes of democracy,
rather. Staunch republicans? That's a joke! (BTW, there were many other
reasons for beign in the fascist camp, like beign an obedient catholic, wanting
to save one's career or even life, etc.)
As to anarchy, the CNT in its congress of may rejected collaboration with the
regime, so it seems the republic wasn't pushing anarchy much (as anyone
would have expected). What's the point of fighting against a regime which is
not friendly to the establishment of anarchy if you're afraid of anarchy? All the
"nationalists" achieved was sparking revolutionary and aggressive (to the
point of massacring unarmed people) behaviour.
>In Spain the "we" were badly organised and extremely divided
>about how the country should be modernised (or indeed
>whether that was even the main question), while "they" were
>determined and well organised. Yes the coup turned into a
>protracted war, but this does not detract from the fact that
>in many ways the "better side" eventually won.
Actually the "we" were quite well organized as demonstrated by their victory in
the streets during the coups despite the advantages of surprise and better
weapons on the other side. And the "they" were not that weel organized as the
failure of the crucial naval mutiny showed. As to unity, the "we" could hardly be
united as this is the condition of collaborating with a bourgeois government
(these governments aren't very fond of arming the people). But the real
problems only began when the russians started doing their dirty work AFAIK.
It was the foreign policies which determined the outcome of the civil war. The
main reason for the failure of the Republic to win the war was a lack of
weapons. The "better side" was the one with the most support from abroad.
>Those who defend the status quo are clear
>about what it is they want to hang on to and the means that
>they have at their disposal to do that.
I'd love to see this clarity. Care to show it to me?
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