I think the problem arises when we drift off-topic. The less focussed +
relevant the discussion, the worse the s/n ratio and the more flames. It's
the first law of elists. No more on Spain, please.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of TAHIR WOOD
> Sent: 16 August 2000 09:50
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re:[CrashList] The relevance of Spain to this chat
>
>
> Mark are you going to indulge this arsehole?
>
> >>> "Julien Pierrehumbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 08/15 6:23
> PM >>>
> [Mark, I know this is off-topic but either this list is
> declared an non-reformist non-
> anarchist non-many-things list, I think it is needed to
> refute throughly those who
> argue that this or that way is impossible. That's how that
> discussion on Spain
> started. Anyway, this is my final post on this issue. Again,
> if you feel I should go
> away, I'll do so swiftly and without anger.]
>
> >Julien, both sides in the Spanish conflict had some
> >assistance from outside
>
> Tahir, you're the king of euphemisms. Do you pretend that
> the "some
> assistance" was kind of identical in importance?
>
> >The
> >point is that the ruling class were threatened by the
> >instability under the 2nd republic ...
>
> In fact, the uprisings of 34 had been brutally crushed and
> eventhough the
> government of 36 freed the prisoners, the regime wasn't lax
> or weak. What's
> that instability you're talking about?
>
> >It is well known that many on the
> >Nationalist side were in fact quite staunch republicans,
> >such as Queipo de Llano, but they were not prepared to put
> >up with anarchy and so gravitated towards the nationalist
> >camp without being at all monarchists or fascists.
>
> Yeah? They were not prepared to put up with the outcomes of
> democracy,
> rather. Staunch republicans? That's a joke! (BTW, there were
> many other
> reasons for beign in the fascist camp, like beign an
> obedient catholic, wanting
> to save one's career or even life, etc.)
> As to anarchy, the CNT in its congress of may rejected
> collaboration with the
> regime, so it seems the republic wasn't pushing anarchy much
> (as anyone
> would have expected). What's the point of fighting against a
> regime which is
> not friendly to the establishment of anarchy if you're
> afraid of anarchy? All the
> "nationalists" achieved was sparking revolutionary and
> aggressive (to the
> point of massacring unarmed people) behaviour.
>
> >In Spain the "we" were badly organised and extremely
> divided
> >about how the country should be modernised (or indeed
> >whether that was even the main question), while "they" were
> >determined and well organised. Yes the coup turned into a
> >protracted war, but this does not detract from the fact
> that
> >in many ways the "better side" eventually won.
>
> Actually the "we" were quite well organized as demonstrated
> by their victory in
> the streets during the coups despite the advantages of
> surprise and better
> weapons on the other side. And the "they" were not that weel
> organized as the
> failure of the crucial naval mutiny showed. As to unity, the
> "we" could hardly be
> united as this is the condition of collaborating with a
> bourgeois government
> (these governments aren't very fond of arming the people).
> But the real
> problems only began when the russians started doing their
> dirty work AFAIK.
> It was the foreign policies which determined the outcome of
> the civil war. The
> main reason for the failure of the Republic to win the war
> was a lack of
> weapons. The "better side" was the one with the most support
> from abroad.
>
> >Those who defend the status quo are clear
> >about what it is they want to hang on to and the means that
> >they have at their disposal to do that.
>
> I'd love to see this clarity. Care to show it to me?
>
>
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