Dear all, In the context of multiple modelling projects, I have run into the need to model the fact that an individual is known to have spoken/used a language. It is a common attribute recorded of an individual in an information system. Often, the only information we have / is known, is that someone 'had language' x or y. The fact that someone is a user / speaker of a language is a potentially directly observable phenomenon. I would thus argue that it can be considered a direct property of an instance of E21 Person. To model competency (native, very good etc.) and/or aspect (written/oral/reading), it might also be necessary to add a .1 property or two.
Modelling how a person acquired a language, when they lost it etc. would require looking at temporal classes, but in the information systems I have seen this is usually not recorded so is not be an immediate modelling need. While I see the logic behind the group modelling pattern, it would seem to go against the idea that a group self-identifies and can in principle act as one. While I think one can make the case for a nation to potentially act as one unit (via their institutions), I don't think that you will get all English, Italian, or French speakers (separately) to create a joint programme of action. The E7 solution is problematic because we don't know any particular event of the using/speaking of language, or rather we are not primarily interested in it. If we wanted to use an event like that, it would have to be something like, language speaking phase/event (where we meant the long term activity of continuously using the language), which is probably hard to know in most cases anyhow. I would thus like to propose to make an issue to discuss the addition of a new binary property, something like: E21 Person 'was user of' E57 Language. The justification is that it is an empirically verifiable property that adheres to a human actor and is regularly recorded in documentation schema for person data. It seems like it might be good to model this in CRMSoc. I would agree that eventually one might want to model the acquisition of the language or the temporal extent of when one was a user of a language. This could built off of the simple property. Best, George On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:12 AM Christian-Emil Smith Ore < [email protected]> wrote: > Dear all, > > Dear all, > > It is correct as Franco writes, that a group can be used to model the > speakers of a language. > > The class E74 Group is a very strong mechanism and can be used to model > almost any relationship between actors, that is, the members of the group > has the relationship indicated by the type of the group. The classes > E85 Joining and E86 Leaving and the properties > > P143 joined (was joined by): E39 Actor > P144 joined with (gained member by) E74 Group > > P145 separated (left by) E39 Actor > P146 separated from (lost member by) E74 Group > > enable us to model the time aspect. > > At least in my opinion, the class E55 Tyoes and P2 has type can be used to > model persons abilities like speaking a language in the cases where time is > not a concern. On the other hand this timelessness give an impression that > a type indicate a trait or some immanent characteristics of a person. It is > a philosophical question whether language skills characterize a person in > such a way. > > There is an ongoing issue 329 in CRM about states. In connection with this > issue there is a table with an overview: “CRM Properties that may have > shorter temporal validity than their domain and range” > http://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/table%20of%20issue%20329.docx > Among these P2 has type is listed. It is still not decided how this time > specific validity should be modelled in CRM. > > Best, > Christian-Emil > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Crm-sig <[email protected]> on behalf of Franco > Niccolucci <[email protected]> > Sent: 24 August 2019 19:45 > To: Maria Jose de Almeida > Cc: [email protected]; "Runa, Lucília"; Barbedo, Francisco > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] EMAIL SUSPEITO: P72 has Language > > Dear Maria, all > > the problem comes from the fact that the CRM usually models what humans > DO, not what they ARE. To model the latter, it is therefore necessary to > introduce an event in which the person participates, as Thanasis suggested. > What he proposes is correct, but considering a language instrumental to the > activity of learning it sounds a bit awkward to my ear: common sense would > consider so a handbook, an app, a teacher etc. > Also, such activity may be problematic with native languages where an > intentional action (= activity) is difficult to attribute to a few months > old baby. > > From your description I believe that you are interested in documenting the > factual knowledge of a language, not that/how it was learnt, so I suggest > the following approach. > > In this specific case you might use membership in an E74 Group, similar to > what is suggested in the scope note of E74 for ‘nationality'. Thus you > would have very large groupings of speakers of different languages, and > speaking one of them would correspond to being member of that specific > group, e.g. > Maria P107 is member of E74 Group 'Portuguese speakers’. > Incidentally, this option would also enable you (if you wish) to > distinguish among the levels of knowledge of that language via P107.1 kind > of member E55 Type ’native speaker’. Thus, also the following would hold > for you: Maria P107 is member of E74 Group ‘English speakers’, but with > P107.1 kind of member E55 Type ’second language speaker’. Further > flexibility can be introduced with this P107.1 if required, like “writer”, > “translator”, etc. > > Best > > Franco > > > Prof. Franco Niccolucci > Director, VAST-LAB > PIN - U. of Florence > Scientific Coordinator > ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS > > Editor-in-Chief > ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) > > Piazza Ciardi 25 > 59100 Prato, Italy > > > > Il giorno 23 ago 2019, alle ore 16:17, Maria Jose de Almeida < > [email protected]> ha scritto: > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > As some of you may know, I’m working in the Portuguese National Archives > an we are building a new data infrastructure using CIDOC-CRM for archival > description. > > When describing biographical information it’s common to state that some > person was fluent in some language, or languages, apart from his/her native > one. Using current archival descriptions standards [ISAD(G) 3.2.2; EAD > <bioghist>] this is represented within a text, usually a very long text > string with information of distinct natures. So far we have been able to > decompose the different elements and represent them adequately as instances > of CIDOC-CRM classes and link them trough the suitable properties. But we > are struggling with this one... > > We cannot link a Person (E21) to a language (E56) and neither use > multiple instantiation, as it has been suggested in other cases ( > http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-258-p72-quantification), because Person > (E21) and Linguistic Object (E33) are disjoint. > > The only way around I can think of is to consider someone’s speech as a > linguistic object and state that that person participated in the creation > of that linguistic object. > > But it seams a rather odd solution as we would have to crate individuals > for someone’s speech in Portuguese, in French, in Russian, etc. and > describe them in a very broader manner. Because when it is stated that a > person is fluent in any of those languages, typically what is meant is that > that person could interact with other speakers of the same language, mainly > trough an oral discourse, or read written documents. Not exactly the same > as creating documents in a foreign language, situation which is much more > straightforward to represent. > > > > Any thoughts that may help us? > > Thanks! > > > > -- > > Maria José de Almeida > > Técnica Superior > > > > Direção de Serviços de Inovação e Administração Eletrónica > > Telefone (direto): 210 037 343 > > Telefone (geral): 210 037 100 > > [email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >
