Dear Martin,
Thank you for your message and comments.
The sentence in question is not the happiest, and George and myself were
not totally satisfied with the wording but it was necessary to send the
homework to the SIG. We can of course reword it and a refomulation that
is certainly also not the best one but expresses the same sense could be:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to facts
observed in an objective manner" or similar.
Take an exemple. I organize a garden party and all my friends and guests
are happy. But there’s a major difference if I do this privately in 2019
or if I’m a prime minister and there’s a COVID pandemic and I just
imposed restrictive measures on the whole population of my country. The
[objective / spatio-temporal] observed fact is the same, a crm:E5 garden
party, but the social ‘facts’ arount it —my social function, the law
establishing that garden parties are not allowed, etc. etc.— add a
social overlay to the event which —for humans living in society— changes
everything and has totally different consequences. CRMbase is concerned
with objective spatio-temporal facts (from E4 Period downward this is
the substance of facts : “This class comprises sets of coherent
phenomena or cultural manifestations occurring *in time **and space*.”)
On the other hand, social facts are situated in another space that could
be called the intentional-temporal, that is to say, the space of
phenomena specific to human societies observed through the filter of
their conventions or collective representations. There is no opposition
but a perfect articulation because the social is grafted onto the
spatio-temporal (or the physical and biological) but adding an overlay
that allows different groups of humans to interpret the same ‘objective’
fact as being two quite different situations: a totally normal and a big
problem.
But I propose to discuss all this, as you proposed earlier, in person at
a live, even if digital, meeting.
Best
Francesco
Le 02.02.22 à 20:11, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
Dear Francesco,
I find this text very well written and clear. My only question is, why:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to pure
spatio-temporal facts,"
I do not see ground in the CRMbase, and the methodology applied, to
regard that facts which are described in the CRM are "pure
spatio-temporal", even if some of the classes and properties applied
may describe only a spatiotemporal confinement. The CRM is very clear
that the substance of Temporal Entities is not space-time.
Further, respective facts you describe would be based on human
activities, and E7 is defined explicitly as being intentional in
substance.
Finally, and most important, there seems to be a misunderstanding of
CRM descriptions in general: no classification and properties of the
CRM are exhaustive or "pure" in any sense. This is also the major idea
behind multiple instantiation, and open world. Describing an item in
terms of CRM does not make any statement what else it is not, except
for a few definitely disjoint classes.
Since this is a key concept of the CRM, part of the principles, it
should be discussed. To my understanding, no extension can be
characterized as "opposed to" another, it would violate its logical
foundations.
All the best,
Martin
On 2/1/2022 2:13 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear all,
Please find in attachment the homework of George Bruseker and myself
concerning "Issue 580: CRMsoc redefinition of scope" for presentation
at the next SIG.
All the best,
Francesco
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
