On 2/2/2022 10:36 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear Martin,
Thank you for your message and comments.
The sentence in question is not the happiest, and George and myself
were not totally satisfied with the wording but it was necessary to
send the homework to the SIG. We can of course reword it and a
refomulation that is certainly also not the best one but expresses the
same sense could be:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to facts
observed in an objective manner
sure, should be something like the material process characterizing the
events,
Take an exemple. I organize a garden party and all my friends and
guests are happy. But there’s a major difference if I do this
privately in 2019 or if I’m a prime minister and there’s a COVID
pandemic and I just imposed restrictive measures on the whole
population of my country. The [objective / spatio-temporal] observed
fact is the same, a crm:E5 garden party, but the social ‘facts’ arount
it —my social function, the law establishing that garden parties are
not allowed, etc. etc.— add a social overlay to the event which —for
humans living in society— changes everything and has totally different
consequences. CRMbase is concerned with objective spatio-temporal
facts (from E4 Period downward this is the substance of facts : “This
class comprises sets of coherent phenomena or cultural manifestations
occurring *in time **and space*.”)
On the other hand, social facts are situated in another space that
could be called the intentional-temporal, that is to say, the space of
phenomena specific to human societies observed through the filter of
their conventions or collective representations. There is no
opposition but a perfect articulation because the social is grafted
onto the spatio-temporal (or the physical and biological) but adding
an overlay that allows different groups of humans to interpret the
same ‘objective’ fact as being two quite different situations: a
totally normal and a big problem.
But I propose to discuss all this, as you proposed earlier, in person
at a live, even if digital, meeting.
Best
Francesco
Le 02.02.22 à 20:11, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
Dear Francesco,
I find this text very well written and clear. My only question is, why:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to pure
spatio-temporal facts,"
I do not see ground in the CRMbase, and the methodology applied, to
regard that facts which are described in the CRM are "pure
spatio-temporal", even if some of the classes and properties applied
may describe only a spatiotemporal confinement. The CRM is very clear
that the substance of Temporal Entities is not space-time.
Further, respective facts you describe would be based on human
activities, and E7 is defined explicitly as being intentional in
substance.
Finally, and most important, there seems to be a misunderstanding of
CRM descriptions in general: no classification and properties of the
CRM are exhaustive or "pure" in any sense. This is also the major
idea behind multiple instantiation, and open world. Describing an
item in terms of CRM does not make any statement what else it is not,
except for a few definitely disjoint classes.
Since this is a key concept of the CRM, part of the principles, it
should be discussed. To my understanding, no extension can be
characterized as "opposed to" another, it would violate its logical
foundations.
All the best,
Martin
On 2/1/2022 2:13 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear all,
Please find in attachment the homework of George Bruseker and myself
concerning "Issue 580: CRMsoc redefinition of scope" for
presentation at the next SIG.
All the best,
Francesco
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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