Dear Francesco, George,
Your comments well taken, since we model bottom up, in order to follow,
I definitely would like that you present a richer set of instance data
to the SIG, and show how you apply SDHSS concepts to such data, once you
have a rich and long modeling experience.
"If interestedyou can SPARQL the data
<https://tinyurl.com/data-challenge-2018> " is not the way to do that.
One cannot understand a database by querying in the blind. I think we
are all interested in such a presentation. I think this should be the
first step for all members that have created CRM extensions and are
interested in collaborating with CRM-SIG.
Since you talk about "the humanities and social sciences communities"
quite globally, I think you owe us a more substantial report of what
groups you experience actually pertains to. Humanities are the core
concern of CRM-SIG since the beginning. So, obviously, there must be
finer distinctions if CRM-SIG has missed this world so thoroughly.
All the best,
Martin
On 2/5/2022 12:59 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear Martin, George, all,
Reading the lines below has inspired me to make a number of
considerations that I would like to share with you in view of the
presentation at the SIG meeting next week of CRMsoc.
1. What George and myself will propose stems from a rich modelling and
semantic engineering experience used in real research and cultural
heritage projects to the satisfaction of the users. I’m referring, on
my side, to the Humanities and Social sciences (SDHSS) project
<https://ontome.net/namespace/11> providing a high-level extension of
the CRM <https://ontome.net/namespace/3> and several other related
namespaces devoted to specific subdomains that are already used in
data production by about ten different research projects and are based
on fifteen years of experience in modelling and semantic engineering
in the symogih.org project. This project allowed collaborative data
production to more then 80 research projects from master thesis to
projects funded by European research agencies. If interestedyou can
SPARQL the data <https://tinyurl.com/data-challenge-2018> published by
the SIPROJURS projec <http://siprojuris.symogih.org/>t. These are
therefore not just abstract philosophical statements, but a modelling
methodology that works and produces interoperable and reusable FAIR
research data.
2. When we were charged, George and myself, in the SIG meetings in
Lyon and Cologne to be the editors of CRMsoc, we knew that we had to
reach to our respective trainings and methodologial approaches, the
one in social philosophy, the other in social sciences' epistemology,
to produce a large enough and robust foundational view of social life
as such. If we want to create an extension that is acceptable to a
broad spectrum of researchers in the humanities and social sciences,
we cannot imagine one personal way or the other, but we must address
the standards of the disciplinary communities and create classes and
properties that are compatible with the views adoped and information
produced by these communities. In other words, it is a question of
being understandable, credible and up to date. This demanded a couple
of years of considering standard literature and confrontig different
points of view, and we have now a robust proposal base on
individual/collective intentionality and social representations, as
foundation of social facts.
3. To speak of a bias when adopting the standard perspective in
contemporary disciplines concerned with social life does not seem to
be very careful. It would be like adopting in this issue the
celebrated view of Archimedes : “Give me a place to stand and with a
lever I will move the whole world.” It is a fact that we humans live
in this world, socialise through language and even scientific
disciplines, and the so-called objective views, are the result of
social conventions. To speak of a constructivist realism is to
recognise, on the one hand, that all discourse on reality is the
result of a social and methodological construction and, on the other
hand, to reaffirm the possibility of operating effectively, using this
discourse,on reality. And this view perfectly fits, if carefully
considered, to the objectivist approach used in CRMbase.
In conclusion, the proposal we are making is a way of giving us as SIG
the opportunity to integrate CRMbase with an extension that meets a
recurring and pressing demand from the humanities and social sciences
communities, and beyond. I would be very honoured and happy to be able
to succeed in this project, and thus improve the integration of CRMsoc
with the standard by refining and enlarging it. But it should be
considered that this process is happening, and will continue to
evolve, anyway.Let's not miss theprovided opportunity.
With all my best wishes
Francesco
----
Dr. habil. Francesco Beretta
Chargé de recherche au CNRS,
Axe de recherche histoire numérique,
Laboratoire de recherche historique Rhône-Alpes
LARHRA UMR CNRS 5190,
MSH LSE,
14, Avenue Berthelot
69363 LYON CEDEX 07
Publications
<https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/search/index/?qa[auth_t][]=Francesco+Beretta&sort=producedDate_tdate+desc>
Le projet dataforhistory.org <http://dataforhistory.org/> – Ontology
Management Environment OntoME <http://ontome.dataforhistory.org/>
Projet "FAIR data" en histoire
<http://phn-wiki.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/doku.php?id=fairdata:accueil>
L’Axe de recherche en histoire numérique
<http://larhra.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/pole-histoire-numerique> du LARHRA
Le projet symogih.org <http://symogih.org/>– SPARQL endpoint
<http://symogih.org/?q=rdf-publication>
Portail de ressources géo-historiques GEO-LARHRA
<http://geo-larhra.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/>
Portail de ressources textuelles
<http://xml-portal.symogih.org/index.html> au format XML
Cours Outils numériques pour les sciences historiques
<http://phn-wiki.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/doku.php?id=intro_histoire_numerique:accueil>
Dépôt GitHub avec documentation des cours et travaux d’étudiant-e-s
<https://github.com/Sciences-historiques-numeriques>
Le 04.02.22 à 18:58, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
On 2/4/2022 11:30 AM, George Bruseker wrote:
Following on this helpful new iteration of the thought by Martin
maybe a phrasing like 'in distinction to facts established directly
through / at the level of material physical processes and
interactions' is more expressive of the content/intent?
I think this is much better!.
For me a socially constructed fact is a fact that does not correspond
to material interactions, but is based on propositional objects a
certain community maintains in an explicit form, typically codified.
It is real in the sense that the communication of the information is
(must be) observable, and people materially react or are forced by
members of the community to react in a specific way in applicable
situations. I use to connect the foreseen reactions to activity plans.
It is further important to be very precise and differentiated about
the subgroups or individuals formulating, adhering to, accepting,
tolerating or enforcing such institutions and the supporting
evidence. Even statements about majorities doing anything of this
kind in a certain community should not be confused with representing
a communities institutions. I think the text should reflect that.
I think the text should be more clear about the sense of "fact"
used, and the modelling work should clearly differentiate particulars
"I am married", "getting married" from the institution of "marriage"
and a particular definition of "marriage" instituted. I believe that
thinking of any of them being out of space or/and time and detached
from the individuals supporting it will create a completely different
sense for the link to evidence, basically not comparable. I'd also
like to refer to Kant's opinion about the role of space and time in
cognition.
I think since evidence in social sciences is much debated and
normally statistically justified, well known criticism in the
application and validity of statistical reasoning should be taken
into account by some form of differentiated position.
Finally, if using conceptual "standards" from particular disciplinary
schools, even from a whole discipline, is intended, I'd expect
serious considerations about the cultural bias this introduces.
All the best,
Martin
On Thu., Feb. 3, 2022, 11:52 p.m. Martin Doerr via Crm-sig,
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/2/2022 10:36 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear Martin,
Thank you for your message and comments.
The sentence in question is not the happiest, and George and
myself were not totally satisfied with the wording but it was
necessary to send the homework to the SIG. We can of course
reword it and a refomulation that is certainly also not the
best one but expresses the same sense could be:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to
facts observed in an objective manner
sure, should be something like the material process
characterizing the events,
Take an exemple. I organize a garden party and all my friends
and guests are happy. But there’s a major difference if I do
this privately in 2019 or if I’m a prime minister and there’s a
COVID pandemic and I just imposed restrictive measures on the
whole population of my country. The [objective /
spatio-temporal] observed fact is the same, a crm:E5 garden
party, but the social ‘facts’ arount it —my social function,
the law establishing that garden parties are not allowed, etc.
etc.— add a social overlay to the event which —for humans
living in society— changes everything and has totally different
consequences. CRMbase is concerned with objective
spatio-temporal facts (from E4 Period downward this is the
substance of facts : “This class comprises sets of coherent
phenomena or cultural manifestations occurring *in time **and
space*.”)
On the other hand, social facts are situated in another space
that could be called the intentional-temporal, that is to say,
the space of phenomena specific to human societies observed
through the filter of their conventions or collective
representations. There is no opposition but a perfect
articulation because the social is grafted onto the
spatio-temporal (or the physical and biological) but adding an
overlay that allows different groups of humans to interpret the
same ‘objective’ fact as being two quite different situations:
a totally normal and a big problem.
But I propose to discuss all this, as you proposed earlier, in
person at a live, even if digital, meeting.
Best
Francesco
Le 02.02.22 à 20:11, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
Dear Francesco,
I find this text very well written and clear. My only question
is, why:
" For facts which are established by convention as opposed to
pure spatio-temporal facts,"
I do not see ground in the CRMbase, and the methodology
applied, to regard that facts which are described in the CRM
are "pure spatio-temporal", even if some of the classes and
properties applied may describe only a spatiotemporal
confinement. The CRM is very clear that the substance of
Temporal Entities is not space-time.
Further, respective facts you describe would be based on human
activities, and E7 is defined explicitly as being intentional
in substance.
Finally, and most important, there seems to be a
misunderstanding of CRM descriptions in general: no
classification and properties of the CRM are exhaustive or
"pure" in any sense. This is also the major idea behind
multiple instantiation, and open world. Describing an item in
terms of CRM does not make any statement what else it is not,
except for a few definitely disjoint classes.
Since this is a key concept of the CRM, part of the
principles, it should be discussed. To my understanding, no
extension can be characterized as "opposed to" another, it
would violate its logical foundations.
All the best,
Martin
On 2/1/2022 2:13 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear all,
Please find in attachment the homework of George Bruseker and
myself concerning "Issue 580: CRMsoc redefinition of scope"
for presentation at the next SIG.
All the best,
Francesco
_______________________________________________
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
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