> Hi Andrej,
Hello Jens,
> lots of (personal) issues you bring forward. However, if we separate the issues it
> boils down to simple
> things and the perspective each of us takes on the(se) problem(s).
As it always does...
> As expected the issue of job seekers and advertiser boils down to availability and
> demand. You don't create
> an IT industry based on the fact that there is a pool of IT professionals looking
> for a job. Simple egg and
> chicken situation as mentioned somewhere elsewhere. Building a strong IT industry
> will mean a greater demand
> of IT professionals with competitive salaries.
At the end, it will, but creating a transparency in job market will create increased
number of opportunities for
everyone, no matter what the current size or strength of the industry is. For me, it
is even more important to place
right people in right places, then necessarily to find jobs for all job seekers
without a job. And for people without a
job, if or when they do get one, to get a right one, not just any job they could find.
Right people in right places not only perform better, and stay longer, but they create
opportunities. They also enjoy
there work more, and are less likely to run after another job or country just for the
money. They come up with ideas,
they open new paths, and they take others with them, in the process creating new jobs.
From your personal experience,
you probably know what I'm talking about here. You started something new, and created
not only new jobs, but also pushed
yourself and people on your team a step forward.
I am of course speculating here, but from experience in other places that do have
transparent IT job markets, if you can
put 100 people in right places, just by rotating them in the marketplace, they will
start creating new jobs (and
sometimes new businesses altogether) in a matter of months.
> We can argue about and try to change the way jobs are actually advertised. I agree
> fully with that. If there
> is a highly informal job market in CHC then it is a reflection of the state of the
> IT industry itself.
Very true. I guess the crucial issue is, are we happy with this state?
If we are, then I guess the email that started this discussion would never be written,
or at least it would not cause
this kind of reaction.
If we are not, then we better do something, or "Are we going to let this one get
away?" will be answered by "who
cares?".
> Before
> head jumping and creating a new newsletter or advertising board to announce
> available jobs I would like to
> see existing initiative(s) supported first. I think that the CSF jobs site is a good
> start and should be used
> and publicised more effectively.
I intended a newsletter to be just this kind of promotional tool. Rise the awareness
both for the situation, and as you
say, "state of the IT industry itself", and get people to use facilities at CSF web
site.
Apparently, it looks like CSI committee is keen to take this task under there wing,
and is asking for a funding.
> My personal experience with job advertisement is probably opposite to yours: rather
> formal, recruitement
> agency, numerous interviews etc. With all companies I have been with and from what I
> can gather from friends
> and guys a know, there are actually not that many jobs filled by word by mouth.
Are you taking about Christchurch? I worked for a company that even had a policy of
not using services of any
recruiters, for whatever reason!
And if so, there was/is still
> an interview phase as you would expect. I have no single example were somebody is
> hired just for the very
> fact of being recommended by a friend. In the end you are about to get into a formal
> relationship
> (employer-employee) with expectations on both sides. The sad thing is that often the
> CV does not reflect the
> actual skill set. So how does a company makes sure that the investment in a new
> employer works out as
> expected? Who actually sets up numerous interview stages with tests and tasks? An IT
> professional with 20
> years experience sounds fine, but what if it turns out that the professional grossly
> underperforms or the IT
> knowledge is rather outdated? If a DBA gets a job coding stuff who's 'fault' is it
> (and what if he does
> actually a very good job?) You can go on with various scenarios but that is not to
> the point.
I agree. Outcome of any scenario can be unpredictable, only the system applied on the
scenarios can add some sense of
direction. There is nothing to say that a good DBA cannot do a good job coding, but
it's more likely that he or she
would get much more predictable results doing DBA work, and probably be more
comfortable with the sense of direction his
career is taking.
There are people that don't fit in this expectation at all, and there is definitely a
group of people out there (like
me) that enjoy doing pretty much everything on offer, and very lucky few in this group
can actually achieve consistent
results doing so.
As I stated before, given the nature of IT industry in small places like CHC, most of
us must have a greater flexibility
and range of skills then it would normally be expected (or accepted) in other
environments, but last time I checked IT
was getting more and more demanding on everyone, and specialization was the only
answer, ultimately.
Now, I wonder what would happen if the person from "Are we going to let this one get
away?" subject used more, shell we
say, "flexible" approach while stating his skills? Many times I heard the advice to
specifically "adapt" my CV for each
and every job I apply for. I always thought this is somehow cheating, or at least
misleading. Would he get more
interviews? Probably. A job offer? Maybe.
But as you say, is this the point? Is it really true that no-one in Christchurch needs
a web developer that used to work
for Amazon.com ? Highly unlikely, in my opinion. Much more likely, nobody knew he is
available, and even more so, nobody
bothered to state there needs in a way that he can see them.
Maybe he is nothing special, maybe he is a great talent and hard worker. Real issue
for me is that we will probably
never know, because of the ways we do business around here. This is what I would like
to see change. Maybe I'm
hopelessly wrong, maybe my judgment is colored by my personal experience that is
possibly not the most typical of them
all, but at least I made a little effort, and put my opinion, experience, and few
suggestions out there.
My motives are purely selfish, of course. I like it here. And I would like to know I
did everything in my modest power,
to contribute and make it possible for me to build my future here. I'm not even
looking for a job (at the moment), but
if or when I do, I would like to know that at that time, it will not be a matter of
accident whether I'll find a job
here or not, and that I will be reasonably sure that if I don't find any, there was
not any available out there. That's
all.
> I agree with the point that available jobs should be advertised as it increases the
> pool of potential
> candidates for specific positions and a closer skill match can be made. To advertise
> jobs you need the
> companies looking for skilled employees. In many ways it is a mutual dependency.
Absolutely. What I'm skeptical about is, for an industry outsider, or recent arrivals,
it looks like nobody is looking
for IT workers here. It looks like there is no need for any skills, and this is just
not true. It can't be true, and it
must not be true, if we have an IT industry here, or if we want one. Small it may be,
but it's here. So let's get it in
the open, and let's see what we have or not have here.
> Another point is the earlier discussion on IT professionals vs freshly graduated
> students. The latter are the
> IT professional of tomorrow. And the things they are tought nowadays is pretty
> amazing and quite adequate.
> The only thing they are lacking is experience. Now, where does that comes from if
> they never get a chance?
> (perhaps in favour of experienced IT professionals who do their stuff the 'old'
> way). With the help and
> guidance of an experienced IT professional it does not take long to get them on the
> right track.
Exactly my point. If you have only bacon, that's fine, and you have bacon. If you have
eggs, you have eggs, and that's
fine too. Only when you have bacon and eggs you have breakfast. At least that's what I
think of as breakfast :-)
We must not allow ourselves to rejoice how we created and employed XYZ numbers of
graduates, and at the same time let
people that are needed to get them on the right track in production environments get
away. If we do, and we not only
provide leadership for this graduates, but also create an industry environment where
they will find it appealing to stay
here, once they do get on that track.
I don't think CHC, or NZ for that matter has much chance to compete in this using
money. But there are more things in
life then money, and if we can create an industry environment where people are able to
find the right place for
themselves as IT professionals, evolve and learn, get promoted and educated, and feel
reasonably comfortable about there
future as part of the IT industry here, we might find a way out of being a breeding
ground for other countries, or even
other cities in New Zealand for that matter.
For people that can't get any of this, just more money will do. And in this game, we
loose for sure. At the moment, for
anyone judging the IT industry opportunities by evaluating a job market, he or she
must feel lucky for having a job. Any
job - forget about what it is, does it lead anywhere, or anything else! I know this is
not true, and probably majority
will agree, but this is how it looks like, just ask the "Are we going to let this one
get away?" guy!
Again, it is my opinion that creating a visible and transparent IT job marketplace is
a big step in creating
pre-requisites for such an environment.
> You can well
> argue that it is a shame to lose IT professionals to overseas places for whatever
> reason. However, I strongly
> believe that we need to nurture the next generation of IT professionals unless we
> are willing to cope with
> generation 'gaps' in the profession. Or do you prefer that the newly graduated go
> overseas, become IT
> professionals with salaray expectations which prohibit them even to think about
> coming back to NZ?
Absolutely not, but this is what is going on right now. Especially because of the fact
that there will always be a drain
of people from places like CHC, for various reasons ("Bright lights, big city"), we
need to treat both graduates and
experienced professionals as part of one and the same necessary foundation for IT
industry here.
To start with, they need to be able to see the marketplace for there skills, otherwise
everything else will be
pointless. If they don't, they will be on the plane before we will be able to do
anything about it. Not to mention that
if this "invisible" IT marketplace state continues for long, there will be less and
less people going to graduate in
anything IT related.
Everybody is talking about dot-com crash. You look around, and see no IT jobs
advertised. Would you be tempted to go
study IT in this kind of environment?
> I join you in the hope that more people might join in the discussion. Perhaps it is
> worthwhile to have a
> seminar, or rather discussion session, at the forum about these topics.
Might be a really good idea. In my opinion, anything that will raise the awareness
about the price we are paying for
"Word of mouth solutions" approach is worth an effort.
If we want to play with big boys, we will have to learn to do thinks the way big boys
do. Especially in last few months,
with all the initiatives floating around, it looks like we do want to play with big
boys. Do we?
Thank you for your opinion, and your attention,
Cheers,
Andrej
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