Camaleón <noela...@gmail.com> writes: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:10:31 +0200, lee wrote: >> >> It can be ridiculously difficult to install Debian. > > (...) > > When it comes to an OS, installation process can be considered > irrelevant. The real problems starts afterwards.
It is irrelevant when you can't install the OS? >> For the clueless user, it would have been impossible to install it. > > The same goes for a clueless Windows user if he/she needs to install the > required drivers to handle the RAID. Or do you thinks this is different > for them? No, if they run into a problem, they aren't able to fix it. However, I expect that there are no problems with installing windoze on a raid. If I can't they get that right, it's even worse than I imagine. >> I've seen broken Debian installers that couldn't find packages. I've had >> installer CDs that couldn't be read for some reason, so I had to drive >> an hour to the place I worked at to make a new ones and drive an hour >> back. > > And I've seen BSOD Windows at the installer which was not able to detect > the storage controller driver. And also printers that cannot be used > because the manufacturer did not provide the 64-bits driver because a 4- > years old device is considered "obsolete" and thus unsupported. Then the software goes back to the place I got it from. If I buy windoze, I pay for something that works. They can fix it or take it back. > To my eyes, clueless windows users are the same than clueless linux > users. What differs them is not the OS but their attitude (how they > confront the problem). Clueless is clueless, so what's the difference? > I wonder how many bugs have you reported and how of them has been > solved ;-) I didn't count. Some them seem to have been ignored, some were fixed. >> You can even get bugs fixed the next day on a weekend when you report >> one. > > You have to be kidding... unless, of course, you are talking about > security fixes or problems for customers that have expressly paid for > support. Not at all, I've had that happening. It wasn't a security fix and it was free software I didn't pay anything for. >> What commercial software has support that good? > > That will depend on what you can afford. I'm talking about support that doesn't cost anything, of course. >> You have the source code, too, so you can even fix them yourself. > > You need to be a programmer. And some key packages are not open source > (like the nvidia or fglxr drivers). Yes, you need to know or figure out how to do it. When you don't have the source code, you don't have that option at all, which is worse. Fglxr is for ATI/AMD cards? Stay away from those, they give you more trouble than anything else. There's an open source replacement for nvidia cards; I'm sure you know that. >> Unsupported hardware, yes, you have to be picky about what you buy --- >> which isn't bad because you avoid crappy hardware which is too likely >> to give you problems to be worth it. > > Don't expect a newbie is going to know about that. They will only buy > what it simply fits to their requirements. It doesn't fit their requirements when the software they want to run doesn't support it. >> Outdated applications? Yes, some packages in Debian are rather old. So >> I got emacs and fvwm and compiled them myself; how more recent can you >> get? > > Again, don't expect a newbie to compile their own packages. I'm a long > time linux user and rarely do... You have that option. If you don't know how to do it, you can learn, that's a different issue. >>>> It's not about finding helpful people. It's what people have been made >>>> to believe. >>> >>> I don't think so. Windows and Linux are both having their own pros and >>> cons, and of course, both do have problems of different nature but >>> problems you have to solve in the end. There are no trouble-free OSes. >> >> People believe that they can solve problems they have with windoze and >> don't believe they can solve problems they have with Linux, and they >> believe they don't have problems when they have a Mac. > > Again, it's all around user's attitude. Maybe you call it attitude and I call it believe? > There should be something like the Microsoft's MVP in the Linux > ecosystem, it would be great. Dunno, I looked at the website and it didn't let me do anything. > And you only have type your problem at the > Google search box and yu'll get thousand hits, lists, forums, blogs and > posts with a solution for your issue Yes, you get that for Linux, not with windoze. > as well as many official resources > you can query (Microsoft's KB). Lol, have you looked at the crap they have on their website? It's totally useless, keeping users stupid. Maybe that changed, it's been a long time since I looked. >>> The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows. >> >> Some have found out how to live with the problems, yes. I don't call >> workarounds or living with the problems a solution to the problems. > > Some have solved their problems. I've never seen anyone who did. > Others have found workarounds and there > will be people that simply could not find a solution and had to go to any > of the thousand tech support assistance points for an expert to deal with > their issues. Should you have a linux system installed, you won't find > many tech. supportes in the real world. I never needed that with Linux and the so-called windoze experts can't fix windoze problems. I'm not surprised since there isn't any documentation and the source code isn't available, either. >>> Clueless people is not what I'm afraid of. Clueless people who want to >>> remain at their ignorant state perpetually and expect the others solves >>> their problems is what makes me shiver :-) >> >> The clueless people who think they aren't clueless are far worse. > > But you can't blame these because they are completely unware about their > status. That's their fault and not mine, sure I can blame them. You can't just claim "oh I didn't know" and thus get away with everything. >> Windoze (and Mac) users pay a lot of money for their software (and way >> too much for their hardware). They can expect that they don't need to >> solve problems. > > That's absurd. I pay for a Windows license and I expect many problems. Not at all. When I buy a product, I can expect that it isn't flawed. If it is, I turn to the place I got it from and they can take three tries to get it right. If they can't, I can return it. Most places take things back without trying. >> They can also expect that they can use their computers intuitively >> because that's what they are being promised. > > And sure both Windows and MacOS make that magic to happen. exactly >> Since everyone can do that, everyone's an expert. > > Not at all :-) of course > Again, real problems (regardless the OS) can be only solved by people who > knows how to solve them or are interested in solving them (→ attitude). It doesn't matter what attitude you have or what you believe. You can believe that the sun won't rise tomorrow or that it will rain. The sun will rise or not and it will rain or not regardless. Besides, there are problems you cannot solve even when you know how to do it. And being interested in solving one doesn't mean that you can solve it. -- Debian testing amd64 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? 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