On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 03:49:40 +0200, lee wrote:
> Camaleón <noela...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:10:31 +0200, lee wrote:
>>>
>>> It can be ridiculously difficult to install Debian.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> When it comes to an OS, installation process can be considered
>> irrelevant. The real problems starts afterwards.
>
> It is irrelevant when you can't install the OS?
No. It is irrelevant to consider the installation step as the source
problem because the installation variable can be easily avoided by 1)
buying a computer with pre-installed OS on it (Windows, MacOS, Ubuntu,
FreeDOS...) or 2) having a friend that installs it for you (Windows,
MacOS, Ubuntu, FreeDOS...).
The system is installed and running, now what?
>>> For the clueless user, it would have been impossible to install it.
>>
>> The same goes for a clueless Windows user if he/she needs to install
>> the required drivers to handle the RAID. Or do you thinks this is
>> different for them?
>
> No, if they run into a problem, they aren't able to fix it. However, I
> expect that there are no problems with installing windoze on a raid. If
> I can't they get that right, it's even worse than I imagine.
What!? You are being too optimistic then :-)
>
>>> I've seen broken Debian installers that couldn't find packages. I've
>>> had installer CDs that couldn't be read for some reason, so I had to
>>> drive an hour to the place I worked at to make a new ones and drive an
>>> hour back.
>>
>> And I've seen BSOD Windows at the installer which was not able to
>> detect the storage controller driver. And also printers that cannot be
>> used because the manufacturer did not provide the 64-bits driver
>> because a 4- years old device is considered "obsolete" and thus
>> unsupported.
>
> Then the software goes back to the place I got it from. If I buy
> windoze, I pay for something that works. They can fix it or take it
> back.
Dude, you can't do this for "do it yourself" computers.
>> To my eyes, clueless windows users are the same than clueless linux
>> users. What differs them is not the OS but their attitude (how they
>> confront the problem).
>
> Clueless is clueless, so what's the difference?
Yet over again? "Attitude" makes the difference.
>> I wonder how many bugs have you reported and how of them has been
>> solved ;-)
>
> I didn't count. Some them seem to have been ignored, some were fixed.
Yeah, that's the norm. I mean, the former ("ignored") is the norm :-)
>>> You can even get bugs fixed the next day on a weekend when you report
>>> one.
>>
>> You have to be kidding... unless, of course, you are talking about
>> security fixes or problems for customers that have expressly paid for
>> support.
>
> Not at all, I've had that happening. It wasn't a security fix and it
> was free software I didn't pay anything for.
Oh, sure. This happens from time to time. But you have to be rather
persistent and there's no guarantee for the problem to be solved.
>>> What commercial software has support that good?
>>
>> That will depend on what you can afford.
>
> I'm talking about support that doesn't cost anything, of course.
Then you are hoping for too much, sir. And remember that free software is
not about things that cost ($) anything.
>>> You have the source code, too, so you can even fix them yourself.
>>
>> You need to be a programmer. And some key packages are not open source
>> (like the nvidia or fglxr drivers).
>
> Yes, you need to know or figure out how to do it. When you don't have
> the source code, you don't have that option at all, which is worse.
> Fglxr is for ATI/AMD cards? Stay away from those, they give you more
> trouble than anything else. There's an open source replacement for
> nvidia cards; I'm sure you know that.
Sadly, there's still times when you cannot select what to use and there
are lots of software packages and hardware devices that do not provide
their sources, that's the problem and we have to face it, like it or
not :-/
>>> Unsupported hardware, yes, you have to be picky about what you buy ---
>>> which isn't bad because you avoid crappy hardware which is too likely
>>> to give you problems to be worth it.
>>
>> Don't expect a newbie is going to know about that. They will only buy
>> what it simply fits to their requirements.
>
> It doesn't fit their requirements when the software they want to run
> doesn't support it.
And they only notice when its too late and start blaming linux and its
poor harwdare support ;-)
>>> Outdated applications? Yes, some packages in Debian are rather old. So
>>> I got emacs and fvwm and compiled them myself; how more recent can you
>>> get?
>>
>> Again, don't expect a newbie to compile their own packages. I'm a long
>> time linux user and rarely do...
>
> You have that option. If you don't know how to do it, you can learn,
> that's a different issue.
Exacttly: that's an attitude. You see? :-)
>>> People believe that they can solve problems they have with windoze and
>>> don't believe they can solve problems they have with Linux, and they
>>> believe they don't have problems when they have a Mac.
>>
>> Again, it's all around user's attitude.
>
> Maybe you call it attitude and I call it believe?
Well, attitudes are for real: you expose one or another. When it comes to
beliefs I'm not that sure.
>> And you only have type your problem at the Google search box and yu'll
>> get thousand hits, lists, forums, blogs and posts with a solution for
>> your issue
>
> Yes, you get that for Linux, not with windoze.
You must be using a different web search than me X-)
>> as well as many official resources
>> you can query (Microsoft's KB).
>
> Lol, have you looked at the crap they have on their website? It's
> totally useless, keeping users stupid. Maybe that changed, it's been a
> long time since I looked.
You have to be kidding: one of the most valued Microsoft features is
their documentation, it's priceless (and not juts their online KB but
Windows embedded help). You won't find something like that for linux
where most of the docs at the web are too outdated (or too new) and
highly fragmented/unorganized. In frief: it's a complete mess :-)
>>>> The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows.
>>>
>>> Some have found out how to live with the problems, yes. I don't call
>>> workarounds or living with the problems a solution to the problems.
>>
>> Some have solved their problems.
>
> I've never seen anyone who did.
Again, you have to be kidding. JFYI, I have solved all of my problems
with Windows by myself :-)
>> Others have found workarounds and there will be people that simply
>> could not find a solution and had to go to any of the thousand tech
>> support assistance points for an expert to deal with their issues.
>> Should you have a linux system installed, you won't find many tech.
>> supportes in the real world.
>
> I never needed that with Linux and the so-called windoze experts can't
> fix windoze problems. I'm not surprised since there isn't any
> documentation and the source code isn't available, either.
Sorry, but I can't believe that. It does not math with my experience.
>>> The clueless people who think they aren't clueless are far worse.
>>
>> But you can't blame these because they are completely unware about
>> their status.
>
> That's their fault and not mine, sure I can blame them. You can't just
> claim "oh I didn't know" and thus get away with everything.
Not knowing something is not a fault but a current status that can be
changed.
>>> Windoze (and Mac) users pay a lot of money for their software (and way
>>> too much for their hardware). They can expect that they don't need to
>>> solve problems.
>>
>> That's absurd. I pay for a Windows license and I expect many problems.
>
> Not at all.
(...)
Then you live outside this world or you're too ingenuous. Have you
recently read the Windows license? It basically say (among many other
things) that they are not responsible for any bug in the software >:-)
>> Again, real problems (regardless the OS) can be only solved by people
>> who knows how to solve them or are interested in solving them (→
>> attitude).
>
> It doesn't matter what attitude you have or what you believe. You can
> believe that the sun won't rise tomorrow or that it will rain. The sun
> will rise or not and it will rain or not regardless.
So here you have the answer to your previous question: attitude cannot be
compared to a believe ;-)
> Besides, there are problems you cannot solve even when you know how to
> do it. And being interested in solving one doesn't mean that you can
> solve it.
99,9% of the computer problems can be solved without much pain. In thi
end, this is just something involving electronics, physics and
mathematics.
Greetings,
--
Camaleón
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