And THESE are just some of the reasons I've decided to go with
Chrome and VS for all .NET work. VS IS a better IDE right now...loads up a
project and is ready to work with in less then 8 secs on my P4 3.00! Delphi
2005 with all the junk turned off still takes me close to a minute and a
half! And worse yet, it doesn't matter if Delphi has been booted up for 10
minute or an hour, the first time you click on the editor you have to wait
another minute while it scans your project and does whatever it's doing! If
you make a mistake and click twice it locks up forever! Yiu know what the
tech rep from Borland said about this? He said it's NOT a bug but an
implementation problem and so I shouldn't expect it to be fixed until the
next version!
Chrome is pure Pascal for 100% compliant .NET, doesn't slow down the
loading of VS projects, Has a ton of new Pascal language features that are
really useful, and lots more planned, AND it's not too expensive!
from: Robert Meek at: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
dba "Tangentals Design" home of "PoBoy"
freeware Windows apps and utilities
located at: www.TangentalsDesign.com
Proud to be a moderator for the
"Delphi Programming Lists" at: elists.org
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Cameron Cole
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:40 AM
To: Delphi-Talk Discussion List
Subject: Re: Delphi 2006 Announced...moved from Delphi List
> Robert, the loyalty you mention is generally from people who are
> comfortable
> with what they are using and are afraid to make the change. Or have spent
> a
> lot of time learning a language and don't want to learn another. Maybe
> have
> invested a lot of money on 3rd party components.
I think change for most people is a bit daunting.
> On this list we have heard people saying VS is crap, VB is crap, and C #is
> crap. I imagine these people have spent less than 5 minutes on those
> platforms.
I have used each tool in projects that top well over 100k lines of code so I
feel somewhat qualified to judge these languages. Visual Studio pre dotNet
was pretty crappy (remember no default sizes for controls?). VB sucks and I
have developed a fair amount of code in it (great debugging though). VB.net
is good except for some strange reason it can't do a few nice things C# can
do and still doesn't have a line delimiter. C# is good save for the
retarded case sensitivity thing, the decision to use the {}, and going with
||/&& for or/and... all things you get used to quickly though.
> Then again, VB, C#, Java users will say Delphi is crap and most likely
> they
> saw Delphi at a trade show and have never used it. People will continually
> bag the other compilers, it appears to be developer human nature.
None that I know. I have several professional friends that are considered
some of the best developers in their field that will still admit Delphi as a
language is/was one of the best. Anyone who thinks Pascal is a weak
language is uneducated. I get that people have preferences, but Pascal is a
great blend of English and C++. The power of C with the readability of VB.
It is a compromise, but a really good one.
> People are generally happy with what they are used to. However, we must
> also
> look at who pays for the products. a user can buy their own copy or steal
> it
> from the company they work for. There are very few users on this list who
> have the Enterprise edition. If they did, there would be a flood of
> complaints about costs of upgrades. When looking at value for money, then
> MS
> has to win. You get what you pay for and more.
Delphi is very expensive. My last company had 25 Enterprise licenses and we
upgraded whenever a new version came out. Needless to say a large chunk of
our tool budget was sunk into Delphi. Visual Studio had its downside as
well. Most of the developers I know got used to fighting the IDE early on
and just lived with VS bugs. Delphi developers are far less forgiving and
expect much more.
> In the case of Borland, you generally pay a premium price for an annual
> upgrade to new version, whereas MS upgrades once every 3 to 4 years. With
> Borland you can be assured that the first version doesn't work, the first
> update fixes 360 bugs in the first version, the 2nd update fixes all the
> problems that update one generated and update 3 is usually stable. When
> the
> 3rd update is released, Borland are planning the next version update. By
> the
> time Borland has reached Delphi 2011, MS will have release VS 2007 - they
> usually skip a version.
This is where I think MS has problems as well. Remember VB1 or VB2? Don't
think so... VB3 was the first usable VB and it was "acceptable". Delphi 1
was a good product compared to VB3, Delphi 2 was better and Delphi 3 beat
the hell out of VB3. VB4... total ass as was VB5. They finally got VB as
right as they could with VB6. Delphi 4 and 6 were OK builds but nothing
special. Delphi 5 and 7 were good. The new Visual Studio actually out
strips Delphi's IDE now, but I remember when Visual Studio didn't even have
help that was usable and that wasn't that long ago. Lets remember that it
took Borland about 3 years to perfect their IDE and MS about a decade. MS
isn't any cleaner than Borland in this area and for years Delphi programmers
wrote code better, faster, cleaner than MS counterparts. I still have
nightmares trying to write forms in VB3 that didn't have more than 30
controls as it would cause the form to run SUPER slow. Funny enough, I
still have forms in C# that draw fairly slow.
Last and most importantly... Delphi did do something MS either couldn't or
wouldn't. Borland didn't abandon their older developers with a new release.
MS basically threw a lot of VB coders under the bus with Visual Studio .Net.
If Delphi had done that with Delphi 8/2005, I am sure it would have been a
much better product. I am willing to give them a few bad apples not to
completely screw over their users.
BTW, don't even get me started on MFC... wow that thing sucked.
> In this thread it seems most are content with D5 or D7, use the
> professional
> version and don't really want to upgrade. I don't blame them, the stuff on
> D2005 that came through turned me off another upgrade. Those that I know
> that did upgrade have all gone back to their previous version.
D2005 might have been the worst Delphi release ever... won't hear any
arguements here.
> In my case, I have always used the Enterprise version of Delphi and
> Enterprise Architect of VS because of the nature of my development work.
> The
> cost for me to upgrade Delphi is significant compared to any upgrades to
> VS.
> In VS, I get all their compilers and get value for money.
I think Delphi programmers get value for the money as you can do C# and
Delphi in the same IDE. However you are right that it isn't as good as C++,
VB, Java and C# in Visual Studio. You do get better controls with Delphi
though and the source which is still unprecedented in the industry. Even
the API wrappers are a really nice touch.
> Incidentally, in the country that I live in, more company's are moving to
> the .NET environment and insist that the development be done in either VB
> or
> C#. Therefore if you want work, you have to at least know one of those
> languages. Delphi is not an option. Then again, there have been a lot of
> ads
> for Delphi programmers that are not being filled as there aren't many
> around
> now. Interesting where they have all gone.
Delphi is dieing out all over and people will be hard pressed to keep
finding jobs in Delphi. Just go to monster.com and search for Delphi
jobs... there are some, but not that many. Visual Studio and Java are the
future. I am not a Java fan, but find C# a pretty good Delphi alternative.
I at least don't feel like I am going backwards with Visual Studio and C#
like I did with previous MS offerings and various Java incarnations.
> If you are a developer for the corporate sector, they prefer the MS
> development environment. They have deals with MS, the IT staff are MS
> savvy,
> they want internal staff to support the developed application.
Always have always will. I have never worked at a company where Borland
wasn't an up hill battle.
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