Hope it helps,

On 5 June 2011 14:20, Steve Peacocke <st...@peacocke.net> wrote:
> Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have 
> always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of 
> the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years.

Php is not as elegant as turboPascal but it is quite comfortable when
coming from Delphi, and probably less of a learning curve than Java,
and not unlike JavaScript, and there are some very good IDEs (e.g
netbeans and of course http://www.aptana.com/) some have plug-ins for
working with undelying framewroks.

Php can be used utilising its available class structures or not as you wish.
It has developed a lot since Richard Vowels had trouble with an
octopus or was it a squid ? :)

If you use php directly for database work have a look at
http://www.php.net/manual/en/refs.database.abstract.php et al with
things which make an abstraction layer so that among other things it
is easier to swap database back-ends if you need to, and
http://pear.php.net/  and choose the chm with user notes
http://www.php.net/get/php_enhanced_en.chm/from/a/mirror  (
http://www.php.net/docs.php )

> I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript 
> pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the 
> thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep.

Then jQuery and like will seem really great. They call components -
plugins, and there are some very amazing things just ready to go.

>I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully 
>conversant in
> up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages 
> fluently but can > only manage a little French,

Je parle un peu aussi, und ich habe für zwei Jahre Deutsch gelernt in
der gymnasium, Ach ní féidir liom Gaeilge a labhairt, aur hum bolo
thora Viji-Hindustani, me ko iti te reo maori

> some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally 
> disappeared from my vocabulary.

Chinese - very sensible.

The joke used to be that we should learn to say "I surrender" in
Russian, but now may be we could need to learn to say in Mandarin
"where is my work station please" ?

Which kind of Gaelic?

> Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to 
> leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place).
> However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was 
> seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than 
> the learning curve would require.

I think the thing for me originally coming of Delphi before E started
to pick up the pieces of Borland dropping the ball, was realising that
I had not learnt turboPascal so much, as some sort of whole
conglomeration of the Delphi drag and drop, editor IDE, and of course
the necessary pascal.  But it was not separated out in my mind. I
natively thought and did 'delphi' as a fully integrated experience -
to me that was windows programming!

So the thought processes were fully combined between actions in the
GUI and the editor, if I had not done some previous Basic, QBasic,
WordBasic, and VBA I would have been a lame duck when Delphi was
suddenly beyond reach.

In essence for many of us Delphi was the first real programming
experience (was actually  the very first fully integrated and
effective IDE as far as I know) and became the template for
development in our minds, and it was a whole re-learning experience to
"come off it" - but it forced me to become more proficient at cross
platform development which has had inestimable benefits.

And php is an easy transition.
But like Steve Todd says ...

>Have a look at the Symfony framework. It takes a little while to get
>familiar with, but worth the trouble. It certainly helps you concentrate
>on PHP business logic rather than HTML,CSS and javascript.

Whatever you go with will have a learning curve of some sort.


> Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks.
> Steve
> On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman <paul.a.nor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>> Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning
>> pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ...
>> You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar.
>> It is built on top of an opensource framework " VCL for PHP", and
>> you'd probably appreciate  E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E
>> bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so
>> it has been well backed technically in its development.
>> Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it
>> for the GUI parts.
>> http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html
>> http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP
>> "With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus
>> form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as
>> configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE."
>> Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for
>> decent testing and error reporting.
>> Also if you want to look at  php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an
>> approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal
>> concepts)
>> http://www.pradosoft.com/  is highly spoken of.
>> Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/
>> "The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework
>> "Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0
>> applications.
>> "Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N,
>> caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding,
>> testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly."
>> Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over
>> html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery
>> (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft)
>> "jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library.
>> "jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML
>> document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions
>> for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that
>> you write JavaScript.
>> "The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and
>> provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole
>> matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code."
>> Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a
>> back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to
>> many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over
>> the years.
>> Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that!
>> You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as
>> needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a
>> consistent low hassle approach.
>> Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving.
>> People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side  programs,
>> mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see
>> Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit.
>> http://www.appcelerator.com/
>> Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA  (JavaScript) you'll find a
>> different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc.
>> These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on 
>> JavaScript:
>> http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/
>> and
>> http://howtonode.org/object-graphs
>> JavaScript has escaped the browser! There are even whole setups writen
>> in JavaScript now -- see http://nodejs.org/
>> "Node's goal is to provide an easy way to build scalable network
>> programs. In the "hello world" web server example above, many client
>> connections can be handled concurrently. Node tells the operating
>> system (through epoll, kqueue, /dev/poll, or select) that it should be
>> notified when a new connection is made, and then it goes to sleep. If
>> someone new connects, then it executes the callback. Each connection
>> is only a small heap allocation."
>> And newer releases of php offer self serving capabilities as well.
>> So it is an interesting time to be involved and to be (re-)entering the 
>> arena!
>> If you just  want simple drag and drop with a framework, Delphi for
>> Php or Lazarus with phpo toolkit, will do most of that for you, plus
>> you can extend things..
>> Here is an early blurb of  Delphi for Php at the outset.
>> http://www.delphi-php.net/2007/03/
>> Paul
>> On 3 June 2011 16:35, Steve Peacocke <st...@peacocke.net> wrote:
>>> Friday question (or Can of Worms)
>>> Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do 
>>> this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time.
>>> I have Delphi 7
>>> I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a 
>>> whole new language and process
>>> There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi.
>>> Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite 
>>> the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else?
>>> Steve
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