Antonio Gallardo wrote:
did I say that? Please don't make it sound as if
I have said something like that, because I clearly didn't!
Why are you overreacting on *my opinon*?
I am just making it clear. (btw, I am very calm ;-)
I never told you said something like that.
very good then
You requested *my opinion*. This is what I wrote it. There "the boss"
is *an abstract figure*. It is not you. I the worse case, the boss
here is the PMC chair, wich is not you too. Keep in mind you are not
the only boss in his daily job here.
I am very well aware of that
Here, people are supposed to help when they can and want. It must be
fun.
not everything is fun within an Open Source project.
I think one needs to tell people that there are responsibilities and
duties connected with roles within an Open Source project.
Saying something different than that would be very misleading.
How are we going to garantee and make sure that people will do
something they don't like to do? ;-) I don't see a way to do that. We
can not force every committer to do a release/[place here any other
task] if he don't want.
sure we can. If we have a rule saying for instance, each committer
has to do a release from time to time and a committer says f*ck you,
then he won't be a committer anymore. So the committer has
make his/her mind, does he/she want to be a committer of Lenya or not.
Simple, isn't it. It's not about forcing, but about the decision
if somebody wants to be part of a community.
This is one of the differences between an Open Source community
and a country. If somebody (a native) within a country doesn't want to
follow a rule, then you cannot really expell this person from the
country, because space is physically limited and other countries
will say we don't want this person either. So a country can only
lock people up or do some other measures what the country/society
feels right to be (for instance chop off a finger ...)
But in an Open Source community one can expell people (which
happened at the ASF before, whereas I think it was for a limited
amount of time, but I am not sure if this person ever came back)
because it's virtual.
This is the point. People needs to be motivated to do the job.
I don't think so. People should motivate themselves. The project
can provide incentives that people become motivated. I think
that's quite a difference.
Whereas I guess you mean things like saying: "Hey, it would
be great if you could provide this patch, etc.)"
and I agree, but I don't think generally that's how
it will work in the long run.
And as was told the motivation comes in differents packages for
differents people. And certainly pushing people to do something is not
the best way to motivate them. Hence I am -1 for that.
So, why did you propose yourself as RM? Because we couldn't push
anyone else?
It is not a full time job for many of us. The PMC chair is a
different story, he has some responsabilities to do when he accepts
the chair, it is part of his duties. Every PMC chair knows that. As
we know, there is a lot of more tasks to do in an Open Source
project. I think Thorsten already pointed to them, so I will not
repeat it again. :-)
In short, every committer is free to decide where they want to help.
No, that's not necessarily true. This depends on the rules the community
decides on, just as the members of the ASF decided that a PMC chair
has duties.
There are different roles:
user
contributor
committer
PMC member (PMC chair)
ASF member (ASF board member)
As soon as you will "enter" the community at the level of a
committer you will have to follow certain rules and one will
have responsibilities and duties attached with it. These
rules of course are set by the community itself, but as long
as the community doesn't change them one needs to stick to
it otherwise the community will quickly go down the toilet.
Pushing people is certainly a faster way to end in the toilet. ;-)
Let's people help where they feel more confortable. Where they are
sure they give more to the community. Allow contribution to the a fun.
as said, if it's possible that contribution is fun, then great,
but there are things which are not fun and that's what we talk
about.
lol. I showed a "dream" because you told money might be an
incentive. I just pointed out how is posible to reach this
incentive. Is this a dream or not?
I think it's very important to understand this.
What? I don't got your idea.
I think it's important to understand how "the american dream" works
and why it's being used/applied and critized.
I really don't care. ;-)
why don't you care?
Because I don't participate in Open Source projects for money. Nobody
pays/paid my contributions. :-)
not directly ;-)
In my few years in FOSS I learned that not all of us are here for a
money hunt. I will said, some yes, but not all. Some of us is here
just for the fun of programming, for personal recognition or for the
fun of helping other people between other incentives. Am I naive?
Maybe.
I don't think you are naive at all, but I think the stuff you are
saying is very misleading. For instance I would claim that
most people are working on resp. contributing this project (and not
just Lenya) because it's related to their daily work and in most
cases it means
money. I can't tell for people outside of Wyona, but I can clearly
tell for
people who work and worked for Wyona, because in the case of
Wyona I can excatly show you the correlation between project activity
and work within the company.
Hello Michi, I am still here! :-) ..... 2 years ago, I worked for
Wyona 2-3 months. Maybe I am not as active as I will like to be,
because I have other tasks to do in other Open Source projects (even
outside the ASF). I feel my contributions in Cocoon have *direct*
impact in Lenya stability wich is a form of contribution. :-)
Another silents tasks I do for Lenya when I have time is reviewing the
commits. Most of the people don't know that. Certainly not, but from
time to time I do this. And I reply only if I found something that
nobody else already saw. Yes, I am not active on the mail list. I
shows up only when I think it is needed. In 4 years, I learned to not
abuse the people time by sending non-necesary mails. Is it my fault?
Should I care more about my own "visibility" in Lenya? ;-)
that's up to you and I think everyone appreciates your contributions
very much. But this is not the point of this discussion.
The point is what responsibilities and duties are related to the role
of a committer resp. PMC member?
I don't think that's bad at all, but it shows me the reality and
not something which I might like it to be.
Well, It shows up we still need to build a community. We need to be
more carefuly when we propose new committers. I will prefer to have a
small list of really active committers than a big list of non-active
committers or committed only when it is related to his daily job.
that's why I think there should be quite a difference between
a committer and a PMC member (resp. responsibilities/duties and privileges)
(and I would claim that in most other projects it's just the same)
But often nothing is more gratificant than receiving a mail with a
"thank you" inside. I think all of us feel a good sensation when
this happens.
sure
And this is why we often found our selfs fixing bugs or adding a new
feature in places that we never used before nor plan to use.
I don't think that's the reason in most cases
Believe it, at least in my case, this is true. This is why I think I
am naive. As a sample, I was caring the most for java 1.3
compatibility in cocoon 2.1.x branch. I can tell you I never used java
1.3 in my whole life! I downloaded it because there was a need to be
compatible with this version. I use java 1.3 now just to test cocoon
compatibility.
I think that's very valuable, but I would argue that you are definitely
an exception (a very positive exception from my PoV :-), but
maybe I am wrong and the world is more altruistic than I think.
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
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