OK, fair point about self-managed. But I object to "leaving it" as Legacy, as I've previously explained (I put that in quotes because it’s not always called that at all - it has at least 3 names right now).
The reality is someone can come up with an objection to every single possibility. Someday we have to live with something that’s good enough and move forward, or we’ll end up just living with the total mash of things we have today. Which maybe is fine with everyone. I’ve tried to put real mental work into thinking about a good name, and have tried to compromise based on feedback. At this point, though, unless someone else comes up with something I’m likely done here. We’ll just “leave it” all as it is now. Cassandra On Aug 11, 2020, 9:11 AM -0500, Ishan Chattopadhyaya <ichattopadhy...@gmail.com>, wrote: > I object to "self managed". It gives the impression that Solr manages itself, > whereas it is the other way around: users need to manage the standalone mode > with lots of manual effort, as opposed to SolrCloud which is in spirit self > managed (solr manages itself using zk). > > I'm +1 with Legacy replication and SolrCloud replication for now. Later, we > can get rid of "SolrCloud" and call it something else. Also, once SolrCloud > is stable enough, we can get rid of legacy mode altogether. We can discuss > that elsewhere. > > > On Tue, 11 Aug, 2020, 7:16 pm Cassandra Targett, <casstarg...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > I don’t feel there is a consensus for me to move forward confidently, but > > > the docs need to be fixed before 8.7. I’ve thought about Ilan’s > > > suggestion, and like calling the non-SolrCloud cluster “self-managed”. It > > > avoids the currently awkward phrasing and any misinterpretation of my > > > original suggestion with clumsiness as Gus pointed out. Can everyone live > > > with that? > > > > > > If so, that leaves what we might eventually call SolrCloud is the > > > remaining sticking point. It’s not a problem that needs to be solved > > > today as the term isn’t going anywhere yet since there aren’t any patches > > > or PRs to change it at a code level. > > > > > > Barring further objections, then, I think I will go ahead with mostly > > > leaving “SolrCloud” as it is, and replacing/modifying “Legacy Scaling”, > > > “leader/follower mode”, some cases of “Standalone mode”, and similar > > > constructions with “Self-Managed Mode” or “Self-Managed Cluster”, etc., > > > as appropriate. > > > > > > Cassandra > > > On Aug 7, 2020, 9:05 AM -0500, Cassandra Targett <casstarg...@gmail.com>, > > > wrote: > > > > The suggestion to use “managed” and maybe “self-managed” is an > > > > interesting one. Do you think it’s possible some might confuse that > > > > with the other ways we use managed - like the “managed-schema”, and > > > > “managed resources” (synonyms and stop words)? Neither of those are > > > > cluster-specific, and I wonder if the overlap in terminology would > > > > cause them to be conflated. > > > > > > > > Cassandra > > > > On Aug 6, 2020, 10:51 AM -0500, Ilan Ginzburg <ilans...@gmail.com>, > > > > wrote: > > > > > Both "legacy" and "SolrCloud" clusters are search server clusters. > > > > > Seen from far enough, they look the same. > > > > > > > > > > In "legacy" the management code is elsewhere (developed by the client > > > > > operating the cluster, running on other machines using a diferent > > > > > logic and potentially another DB than Zookeeper) whereas in > > > > > "SolrCloud" the management code is embedded in the search server(s) > > > > > code and it happens that (currently) this code relies on Zookeeper. > > > > > > > > > > I see SolrCloud as a "managed cluster" vs. legacy that would be "Self > > > > > managed" by the client, or "U manage" (non managed when looking at it > > > > > from the Solr codebase perspective). > > > > > > > > > > Same idea as coordinated vs uncoordinated basically. I don't know why > > > > > but I prefer "managed". > > > > > > > > > > Ilan > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:49 PM Cassandra Targett > > > > > > <casstarg...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2020, 10:22 AM -0500, Gus Heck <gus.h...@gmail.com>, > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > WRT the name "uncoordinated mode" I fear it could be read (or > > > > > > > > even become known as) as "clumsy mode" which is humorous but > > > > > > > > possibly not what we're going for :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had also considered “non-coordinated”, and prefer it but > > > > > > > couldn’t articulate why. The association of “uncoordinated" with > > > > > > > clumsiness might be what was bugging me. > > > > > > > > I'd perhaps suggest Cluster mode for SolrCloud though I'm not > > > > > > > > entirely sure if Legacy Solr (in curren parlance) is not a > > > > > > > > "cluster" too, cluster being a somewhat vague term. However > > > > > > > > Clustered Mode and Legacy Mode seem more on target. I think > > > > > > > > "Legacy" could be changed since we're not really planning on > > > > > > > > abandoning it (are we?), but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can have a cluster and not run SolrCloud. I think from an > > > > > > > operations perspective, several servers all running Solr is > > > > > > > considered a cluster, no matter what tools are being used to get > > > > > > > them to talk to each other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think “Legacy” (also used today already in some contexts) is > > > > > > > problematic because there aren’t plans to abandon it. Also > > > > > > > “Legacy replication” is pretty close to exactly what PULL > > > > > > > replicas use to poll leaders and pull new index segments when > > > > > > > needed. IOW, it’s not “legacy”, it’s very actively being used in > > > > > > > a growing number of clusters. That might be an implementation > > > > > > > detail users aren’t aware of, but I feel the term is really > > > > > > > lacking mostly in that it just doesn’t say anything besides “it’s > > > > > > > older”. > > > > > > > > the adjective there SHOULD communicate reduced functionality > > > > > > > > because there are plenty of features that are cloud (cluster) > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my view, the reduced functionality of non-SolrCloud clusters > > > > > > > is mostly around coordination of requests, leader election, > > > > > > > configs, and other similar automated activities one does manually > > > > > > > otherwise. So, I feel that sort of proves my point - a word that > > > > > > > conveys lack of coordination is a good option for what it’s > > > > > > > called. If there is a better antonym for “coordinated”, I’m all > > > > > > > for considering it but haven’t yet been able to think of/find one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it’s important to think about what differentiates the two > > > > > > > ways of managing a Solr cluster and derive the naming from that. > > > > > > > What features of SolrCloud don’t exist in the non-SolrCloud > > > > > > > approach? What words help us generalize those gaps and can any of > > > > > > > them be an appropriate name? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Gus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:27 AM Cassandra Targett > > > > > > > > <casstarg...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The work in SOLR-14702 has left us with some awkward phrasing > > > > > > > > > (which is still better than what it was) around non-SolrCloud > > > > > > > > > clusters that I've offered to help fix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we've struggled for years to find a good name for > > > > > > > > > non-SolrCloud clusters and we've used a number of variations: > > > > > > > > > "legacy replication" (which it isn't, since PULL replicas use > > > > > > > > > the same thing), "Standalone mode" (which it isn't because > > > > > > > > > it's a cluster), now "leader/follower mode" (which could be > > > > > > > > > confusing because SolrCloud has leaders). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yesterday I thought about what really differentiates a > > > > > > > > > SolrCloud cluster and a non-SolrCloud cluster and it occurred > > > > > > > > > to me that a key difference is the former is coordinated by > > > > > > > > > ZooKeeper, while the latter is not. That led me to think that > > > > > > > > > perhaps "coordinated mode" can someday be a better > > > > > > > > > replacement for the term "SolrCloud", while "uncoordinated > > > > > > > > > mode" could be a replacement today for all these other > > > > > > > > > non-SolrCloud mode variations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've opened https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-14716 > > > > > > > > > and will create a branch for work in progress, but before I > > > > > > > > > forge too far ahead, I want to draw attention to it first to > > > > > > > > > give a chance for discussion so we're in agreement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Cassandra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://www.needhamsoftware.com (work) > > > > > > > > http://www.the111shift.com (play)
