Hi, Adding my 2 cents...
1. NetCat is an important part of NetBeans release process, and we need to find a way to make it work moving forward, in the Apache NetBeans world we live in now. 2. I don't agree, in their current state for the dev and netcat lists to be merged, I think there's a lot of traffic on both, and some people might only be using NetCat for testing their favourite IDE, and don't need or might want to care about the dev mailing list. But I understand the need to hear their voice/vote when it comes to releases, so if merged I won't have a problem. My concern is how do we see releases happening moving forward? are we thinking every 6 months or a slower paced every 12 months or something else entirely? Once we know that, how do we build a process that fits a suitable timeline for a release? For example, lets say tomorrow the dev mailing lists agrees to initiate a release. What do we do, what process are we following? Based on my understanding of Apache and NetCat I would see it roughly as: Day 0: dev mailing list agrees to initiate a release, - Code Branched into specific release Branch & Jenkins updated Day 0: NetCat Announced + Week of signups Day 0-6: New and Noteworthy page created/updated (Useful for NetCat process to see what new features they need to update their test specs with) + Branding changes in the branch, etc... Day 7: Test Spec Review Starts Day 14-21: Testing Starts Day 44-51: Testing Ends (roughly 30 days of testing?) Day 51: 72 Hour NetCat Community Acceptance Vote (use to be a survey, but I assume now it needs an email vote) Day 55: 72 Hour PPMC Vote Day 59: 72 Hour IPMC Vote Day 64: Release That's roughly 2 months from the dev mailing list identifying a release. Assuming everything is on the happy path. Is this the process we want to move forward with? Or do we need to consider tweaks now, because to me, once we identify the release process, and how NetCat sits in it now that we're in Apache, then we know what to do with their mailing lists. Regards John On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 22:13, Sven Reimers <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi all, > > as part of NetCAT and PPMC here is my take. > > 1. NetCAT is very valuable as a resource for providing a high quality > release - volunteers are putting a lot of effort into going through all the > features checking everything works - we should make this in integral part > of our Apache NetBeans story. > > 2. From an Apache perspective there is only the vote of (I/P)PMC - and I > think we should play by those rules. > > 3. How about ensuring that NetCAT has a representative as part of the > (i/P)PMC - then those people can just vote -1 on a release and we do not > need any other additional means. Jiří Kovalský, David Heffelfinger and > other people are part of our PPMC so we (including myself) could listen to > a vote from the NetCAT tribe leaders and vote accordingly. Would this be > good enough? > > 4. Merge the lists - With the additional work of the NetCAT team updating > the specs I see more interaction necessary with the dev list. So probably > 90% of all NetCat traffic is dev relevant - maybe we can try to figure out > a way to reduce spamming dev with the organizational bits and pieces - > although dev's may be interested in all this as well... > > Comments? > > -Sven > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:48 PM Emilian Bold > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably > > disbandening > > > it is in nobody’s interest. > > > > I believe NetCAT might be our "strategic advantage" compared to the other > > open-source projects. So, I like it a lot! > > > > I just wish I would get to know these people and since I consider their > > work a proper contribution I would like to meet them on dev@. > > > > The NetCAT bylaws though might need some fine-tuning in light of how > > things are done under Apache. > > > > --emi > > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > > > > On 25 June 2018 6:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I’m fine with that too. I’m not disputing or puting (?) anything at > all. > > > > > > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably > > disbandening > > > > > > it is in nobody’s interest. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > On Monday, June 25, 2018, Emilian Bold [email protected] > > .invalid > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Their > > > > > > > > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where > > > > > > > > > > they're > > > > > > > > > > able to vote too if they like. > > > > > > > > This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have > a > > > > > > > > go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on. > > > > > > > > --emi > > > > > > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > > > > > > > > On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any > > > > > > > > > > disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. > Their > > > > > > > > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where > > > > > > > > > > they're > > > > > > > > > > able to vote too if they like. > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel [email protected] > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have > a > > > > > > > > > > > > separate list for NetCat. > > > > > > > > > > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate > > > > > > > > > > > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subjects helps > > > > > > > > > > > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > things, and I > > > > > > > > > > > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > differently > > > > > > > > > > > > > than feedback from the developer community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my > feeling > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this), so > > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of > > redirect so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if > > something > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is deemed > > > > > > > > > > > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lists would > > > > > > > > > > > > > be involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the > voting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > process > > > > > > > > > > > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that could > > > > > > > > > > > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the > ones > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that were > > > > > > > > > > > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not > > really in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > line > > > > > > > > > > > > > with Apache policies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luca. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Messaggio originale ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A: [email protected], "netcat" < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ > > mailing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it. One > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like it, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some weight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > important. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / > > experienced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > > > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discourage > > > > > > > > > > > > > that or not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to > netcat@, > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind > > that, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > before any vote on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > > visit: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > > visit: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > visit: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > [email protected] > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sven Reimers > > * Senior Expert Software Architect > * Java Champion > * NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org > * Community Leader NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans > Desktop Java: > http://community.java.net/javadesktop > * JUG Leader JUG Bodensee: http://www.jug-bodensee.de > * Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009 > > * XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Sven_Reimers8 > * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svenreimers >
